<p>Taxguy, I'm not comparing actuarial w/ accounting. IMO, both have excellent growth fields. No one field is better than the other. Obviously, the accountant who works very hard and excels up the ladder than the lazy actuarial analyst is going to be better off and vice versa.</p>
<p>While there may be only 18K FSAs in the US, the bread and butter of the profession which is the defined benefit pension plan is rapidly being eliminated as a benefit at America's private sector corporations. This will gradually result in decreased opprortunity for the profession as there will be fewer and fewer plans to value.</p>
<p>
[quote]
...the lazy actuarial analyst...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>is there such thing? ;)</p>
<p>Vienna Man. The bread and butter of the actuarial field is anything BUT the pensions area. You're talking about a narrow area in he actuarial field called pension consulting and yes this area is dying. But areas in property and casualty are very hot and projected to explode in the next 10 years. Health plans are projected to do well and life looks stable.</p>
<p>Lately, actuarial analysts are getting into the investment arena - investment advisory firms. Pension consulting is but a fraction of the kinds of actuarial jobs that exist.</p>
<p>If you want to see a future job outlook of the overall actuarial profession, I recommend looking at the BLS website.[url=<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos041.htm%5DActuaries%5B/url">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos041.htm]Actuaries[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Notice where it says,</p>
<p>Employment change. Employment of actuaries is expected to increase by about 24 percent over the 2006-16 period, which is much faster than the average for all other occupations. Employment growth in the insurance industry—the largest employer of actuaries—is expected to continue at a stable pace, while more significant job growth is likely in other industries, such as health care and consulting firms.</p>
<p>Steady demand by the insurance industry should ensure that actuarial jobs in this key industry will remain stable during the projection period. Although relatively few new jobs will be created, actuaries will continue to be needed to develop, price, and evaluate a variety of insurance products and calculate the costs of new risks. The demand for actuaries in life insurance has been growing rapidly as a result of the rise in popularity of annuities, a financial product offered primarily by life insurance companies. In addition, the risk of terrorism and natural disasters has created a large demand for actuaries in property insurance.</p>
<p>One thing I think that is hot in actuary as opposed to accounting is that if you pass exams like fire and get your FCAS by let's say 27-28, you'll be making 150-170K. If you're an FSA then you'll make 130K+ by 27-28. </p>
<p>According to my tax accounting friend at KPMG, he hits 100K at 27-28 years of age with the CPA. (big4 tax acct employees salary doubles after 5 years starting from their entry year and respective salary - 50K goes to 100K). Of course, if you're a tax accountant in NYC at a big5, you would possibly make more than this.</p>
<p>I feel like overall, actuarial field gives the "possibility" and "potential" for greater money and at a faster pace than accounting provides. </p>
<p>Note: When I talked about accounting, I picked the elite accounting class (those working big4) and you're average accountant definitely does not make what they pay at big4. But according to the salaries at DW</a> Simpson: Actuarial Jobs, Actuary Jobs, Actuarial Recruiters, Actuaries, Actuarial Employment, Salary Survey, Actuarial Recruitment, job actuary - you can confirm that on average, a fellow actuary (FSA/FCAS) who has at least 5 years of experience does hit the figures I posted above(FCAS: 150K+, FSA: 130K+).</p>
<p>Now if you used your tax accounting knowledge and become a successful tax lawyer -you can make millions but then again that would be comparing actuaries with lawyers, not accountants.</p>
<p>the only thing i'd add is the amont of work you put in to become a cpa is nowhere near what you have to put in to become a fcas. also, most of the people who take the first actuarial exam are math/statistics/act sci majors, a competitive pool to begin with. the fact that many of them still fail means passing even just the first one is no easy task, let alone the subsequent 8 exams (which, from what I heard, gets harder and harder). pay is essentially a function of supply vs demand; the high pay simply reflects how few fcas are out there and the exams explain why.</p>
<p>Well, but you can be fellow actuary with just a bachelor degree . ... but (as far as i know for NYC and some other states) you can not sit for the CPA until you have masters degree + experience. So it just depends on how you look at it. Actuary lets you get much further with just a bachelor. You are not going to hold a top position in big 4 with your bachelor. ... you will need masters or mba to really advance yourself.</p>
<p>to me, a master degree is never a big deal to me. it's just extra 30 credit hours. i got a master degree too and all it took was just one extra year of school. </p>
<p>i thought one can sit for cpa and get "certified" first without any work experience but then get licensed when enough years of work experience are collected. imho, i don't think it matters any bit since you can't hold a top position at any firm without much working experience anyway. my cousin is making 65K as an accountant for a production house in los angeles and she's working on her college degree part time (she does have years of experience though). i think accounting is an attractive field from the standpoint of ROI. </p>
<p>as for actuary, it's not just about the time needed but also the uncertainty involved. even if you are fairly intelligent, the risk of hitting the wall no matter how hard you try is very real. the 8 years average is for those that pass all the exams. that's the average time for the best of the best, not counting the majority that never get to that point. my friend who went to berkeley dropped the profession after 4 exams. he's probably smart enough to pass more if he works hard but he got tired of studying with little to no social life. the two actuarial fellows i personally know have a phd at uchicago and a math degree from yale, respectively. the chicago phd took 7 years to get it (failed just one of the exams). the yale person just got his at the age of 44. i also knew a student actuary from my tennis class and she was taking her fifth one, for which, she stopped coming to the tennis practice 3 months before her exam. she got a master in statistics and her degree was from taiwan univeristy (#1 in taiwan). a lot of actuary science professors don't have FSA either; what they have are ASA (associate), 2 or 3exams shy of becoming a fellow and we are talking about PhDs in stats/math/insurance risk management here. like you said before, the fellow is like phDs in actuary. :)</p>
<p>I'm studying for my 4rth actuarial exam right now. The freaking manual is over 2000 pages. Uggh. I'm ditching this profession soon and getting my quant degree. LOL</p>
<p>i thought you said you passed 2. are you taking the 4th before the 3rd?
2000 pages? why is it so long? what area is this one? i hope you were kidding!!! i will be taking my first...and i already feel i am not as good as when i was in college--getting old. :(</p>
<p>by the way, can you go back and fro between problems on the computer? the study materials i am using are all paper copies. i wonder if i should purchase some computer based practice tests.</p>
<p>4rth >> easier than 3rd. 3rd is life contingencies and involves stochastics - nasty stuff. 4rth is very statistics geared and material is not as difficult as 3rd.</p>
<p>Sam your a NW grad right? If I was you, I would join the Univ. of Chicago one year Financial Math program and get a lucrative placement in the financial markets world. Why be an actuary?</p>
<p>Edit: Just saw your edit.</p>
<p>I recommend using this website: Actuarial</a> Outpost - World's Largest Resource for Actuarial Science Discussion Forums, Actuary Jobs, Free Study Materials, Exam Links and more</p>
<p>click under discussion. Navigate to preliminary exams under exam P. There check out what the best study manual is.</p>
<p>If I was you I would use a study manual (don't use a probability textbook for this) - the manuals are very good. I used Actex. You can check out the study manuals at:</p>
<p>1) <a href="http://www.actexmaddriver.com%5B/url%5D">www.actexmaddriver.com</a>
2)Actuarial</a> Bookstore</p>
<p>Once you drill through the manual, take the practice questions on <a href="http://www.beananactuary.org%5B/url%5D">www.beananactuary.org</a> (under exams)</p>
<p>yea, i went to nw...i was very average among nw students though. lol.</p>
<p>do you get the result immediately after the exam P?</p>
<p>i can't afford most public schools, let alone private ones like uchicago. i do think about going to georgia state's dual-ms in act sci and mathematical risk management. so is that what you are going to do? to get into the investment/s&t world? if so, why are you taking the 3rd exam? what are the pros and cons for you?</p>
<p>thanks for the tips..kotchian123</p>
<p>sure np. I plan on working or a few years as an actuary before maybe going to a quant progrm.</p>
<p>Or I might get my ASA/CFA but I don't think that'll be very helpful for investments when you're competing with armies of top MBA's/MFE's and what not.</p>
<p>Sam where did you work after graduating from NW?</p>
<p>I am an engineer and I've been stuck with the same company because of application of Green Card, for which I am STILL waiting. :(</p>
<p>have a kid and you will get that card in no time</p>
<p>
[quote]
you can not sit for the CPA until you have masters degree + experience
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is more like you need an extra 30 units in anything, the masters is not required.</p>
<p>
[quote]
have a kid and you will get that card in no time
[/quote]
</p>
<p>easier said than done especially if u are gay. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>yes that would be difficult. After near 30 years my mom decided to become legal and since i was her sponsor, she got her card in less than 5 months instead of the few years or more it takes. Apparently children that are just born or just turning 21 are magical</p>
<p>Just had an interview with a pension consulting firm today. Are you SERIOUS? This area so bland, dry, freaking BORING how could anyone do this. </p>
<p>However, the team leader was a very beautiful female whom I chatted with for almost an hour which was awesome.
lol</p>