I think it’s booming everywhere. Like you said, the question is, how do they accommodate them, one lecture for everyone, or more than one time slot with less students in each one.
“The holy grail is finding a school that values undergraduate instruction and has enough resources, whether they offer doctorate or not.” - It’s all about Fit. For DS, Olin was the holy grail of engineering schools. But for most students it would be far too teeny/limited.
If in doubt, going to the state flagship route and leveraging the support resources seems a reasonable choice… especially in cases where the student is motivated and family finances are limited,
Non-PhD does not necessarily mean no research opportunities for undergraduate students. In fact, most non-PhD schools actually do provide research opportunities to undergraduates. The better schools have better and more research opportunities.
Small class sizes are a great luxury! Combine that with the fact that professors, rather than TAs, typically teach classes and you begin to see the advantage of attending an undergraduate focused school. At the very least, these luxuries make the college experience more enjoyable!
From what has been pointed out to me is that most schools that offer small introductory engineering classes (<40) are usually liberal arts colleges that offer engineering. But the trade-off with these schools is that they offer far fewer class options and facilities as you move into your upper level engineering courses.
^^That’s not necessarily so.
There’s a set of smallish STEM schools that provide the intimate classroom setting that some students seek. Most of them are private, such as Illinois Institute of Technology, Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Rose Hulman, Case Western Reserve University, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, for example. There are relatively smaller engineering departments at comprehensive private universities such as U of Tulsa and U of Portland, among others. And small public STEM universities like South Dakota School of Mines & Technology and Colorado School of Mines provide personal attention to their students as good or better than the private STEM colleges.
I was thinking more of the introductory classes. WPI introductory course cap out at 125 I believe. Case has surprisingly large introductory courses (300 for first year chem for example).
For comparison, I just checked with my D at Rose-Hulman. Intro Calc courses are typically capped at 25 and the sciences (chem, physics) at 30. Most of her other classes had between 10 and 25 students. It’s possible a prof will allow a couple overrides to bump a section up by 1-2.
That is nice. If my DD had any interest in a small isolated campus we would have looked there. (Union and Lafayette were too isolated for her LOL)
@smokinact - Yeah, Rose is not for everyone. Our second D would not consider it.
@Commiserating, you are in TX and D has applied to Engineering at TAMU, and she is NMSF - likely NMF.
Note, I am summarizing for my own train of thought - to make sure I have all the pieces.
Q1: Are you primarily interested in the NMF full ride packages? (TAMU, OU. others)
IF NOT, then
Q2: Has she / will she consider U Texas?
Her profile screams Liberal Arts to me. She looks like a candidate for the highly reputable Plan II Honors major at UT Austin. She could apply for that (as second choice major) with Engineering as a first choice major. She could enroll in both. She could eventually drop Engineering if she finds her passion in Plan ll. OR stick with both - likely 5 year track. Lots of support for the Plan ll students - financial and otherwise.
If you are not familiar with it - read about it - and sign up to visit (may have to call for a special appointment).
It is a phenomenal program - like the best of Ivy-like LAC and Large Research U rolled into one.
Only concern is your comment that she “hasn’t found anything terribly interesting yet.” The Plan ll students find EVERYTHING interesting.
Intro to CS is a required core class for all Mudders, so I wouldn’t say it is exploding enrollment for them (although I think it is recent that the cross-enrollment students have their own section). Also, Mudd offers a couple different intro classes, essentially one for experienced programmers and one for students who are more new to it. So I think now, even if the distribution is somewhat uneven between the two intro courses, that there are probably no more than 100 students per intro CS class. My kid (who hadn’t programmed hardly at all before arriving at Mudd) was always able to get help – lots of helps from formal tutoring & lab sessions and other CS majors she knew in the dorm.
Those schools may have research opportunities, but given their size, the variety available is going to be less. Further, having been to many research conferences where people from universities and other research labs present their work, I can say that I’ve seen a very small number of presentations by some of those small, non-PhD schools. There are certainly some, but it’s a notably small number.
Perhaps it’s simply that none of them do fluid dynamics research, but doubt that is the case. In reality it’s more of the fact that there is simply not that much research going on there compared to the larger programs.
So yes, there is probably plenty of research opportunities at many small, non-PhD schools, particularly in light of the small number of students. There are still advantages to the large research universities though, in my opinion, as they will have a larger variety of research to choose from and help you find your path.
Like I said, people will certainly disagree with me, but I personally really value the research aspect of engineering and was grateful to have the late variety to chose from at my state university. That has certainly colored my opinion.
I agree with @boneh3ad .
Some of our considerations when we were looking for an Engg. School for my D2:
a) Name recognition in the field – V Imp
b) Quality of fellow students – V Imp
c) Quality of teaching staff – V Imp
d) Research opportunities as an undergrad – V Imp
e) Internship/Co-op opportunities – V Imp
f) Job placement record – V Imp
g) School spirit and engagement in extra curricula (sports, etc.) – V Imp
h) Urban/city location – Imp
i) Weather – Considered
j) Diversity – Considered
k) Size of student population – Considered
l) Cost of attendance – Considered
m) Stress and workload levels - Considered
n) Class size – Not considered
o) Retention rate, graduation rate, weed out rate – Not considered
Based on the above criteria, most small STEM schools (HM, Rose, etc.) and LACs (Bucknell, etc.) were not in our short list to apply to. D2 will be a 3rd generation Engineer!
Research as an undergrad is nice, even important, but the breadth and quality of the options are usually overrated. VERY few students walk into UG thinking “I want to research fluid dynamics.” Additionally, research is NOT the primary objective of undergraduate studies.
@smokinact and @012575, there are schools that can meet the criteria of small(ish) classes, heavy undergraduate focus, lots of “toys,” great reputation, great job placement, etc. without “selling out” to an LAC based engineering program or a school isolated in the boonies. Lehigh, RPI and Cal Poly all fit the bill.
My son is a student at Cal Poly. He’s never had more than 50 (usually less) in any of his math or physics classes. He did have 200 in Materials, but it’s required of nearly every engineer and was held in the largest lecture hall on campus. It was definitely the exception, not the rule.
Except for school spirit, how does Mudd not make that list? They are committed to giving most freshman research experiences their first summer (my kid just presented her research from the past two summers this month at a conference, is working on a paper with a prof on it, and has a second research position in another discipline this semester). They have every one of your V Imp criteria except a D1 football team, and also meet h, i, and j (depending on your definition for j).
@eyemgh, I am well aware of Lehigh, since I lived in the Lehigh Valley area for a while and my kids were born and raised there 
As for RPI, my D2 did land a large scholarship from there and COA would have been much lower than where she is currently at (GTECH). Having visited RPI, she felt that it was too much like an extension of “school life” and she wanted to venture out and experience something she deemed as between school and working lives. I think it was a step in the right direction and part of her maturation process as she has adjusted very well to college life! She gets enough attention when she needs it but is left alone to pursue her interests and is learning to fend for herself in a fairly large ethos.
@intparent, Lehigh, Cal Poly and RPI all have D1 sports. I’m not personally saying that’s important, but for some it is. All three certainly represent the “typical college experience” for better or worse, it all depends on your perspective, than Mudd, or even more so Olin, also a great school.
@i012575, GT is a great school with lots to offer. I was just pushing back on the notion that small class sizes and high caliber are mutually exclusive.
It’s all a matter of what you value. Not everyone is going to care, but there is absolutely a difference in the breadth of research available at a place like Michigan versus what is available at a place like Rose Hulman, even though they are both fantastic schools.
Of course they don’t. I didn’t feel that way either. Most people who do have that kind of goal in mind find out their interests lay somewhere else after a year or two anyway. The important thing is that I had an array of options at my fingertips if I so desired once I did decide exactly where I wanted to specialize.
As of now, it usually is not for most people. However, I am of the opinion that it should be emphasized more. I don’t think it should be required, of course, because it is not right for everyone, but I do think that the opportunities should be publicized more than they are and that it is worthwhile to consider it when choosing an undergraduate school. Research is a really nice way to take what you’ve learned and apply it to an actual problem. When I was teaching during graduate school, there was a noticeable difference in the average quality of the questions coming from students where were participating in research compared to others (regardless of whether they were researching a related topic). It is just one more means of learning how to think scientifically.
Again, it is not for everyone, and everyone has different selection criteria. My original post was pointing out that based on my priorities and my experiences as an undergraduate, if I had to go back and do it all again, I would only apply to places with large research programs. After all, it is really difficult to tell whether you would want to do research when you are a senior in high school, but I would hate to make it to junior year, decide it would interest me, and realize that my options are limited.
@boneh3ad, I agree 100% with every point you made. In all honesty, I think some sort of research, if only for a short time, should be mandatory for all science majors, whether or not they choose to pursue a research career. A healthy understanding of the scientific method is foundational.
The problem with having exposure to vast amounts of research is that it frequently comes hand in hand with a less than ideal learning environment. Is the access to research worth sitting in a lectures with 600 of your closest friends, and having discussions and labs largely led in heavily Chinese, Pakistani, insert foreign language here, accented English? That’s the way I did it and I did research as an undergrad too. I can’t say, for myself, that it was worth the trade. Only individuals can decide for themselves, but in balance, it seems like most would prefer better teaching.
I think the point you made most strongly, is something that everyone searching for a college should take to heart. What is most critical is that the student decides what is important, not USNWR, not the neighbors, really, not even mom and dad. If that’s research, size, location, the weather, so be it.
“we’re about to apply to Purdue”. Really! are you going together? the use of “we” is very telling. Is the student ready to go to college or is the parent going with?