Which Engineering Schools support students more than weed them out?

College Majors Engineering Majors
101

@Commiserating, Proximity to home is a double edged sword. Being too close can inhibit a student, especially an introverted one, from integrating into the collegiate community. Knowing you’re not isolated is important though and there are many ways to get to that point. First and foremost, have her go to the full orientation program. She’ll develop friendships right out of the gate. Live in a dorm with other students who are studying engineering. It’s hard to live with business majors because the pressure to party (not that there’s anything wrong with that, it just needs to be self regulated) is too incessant, due to the far softer work load. If possible, she could go somewhere that a classmate or two are going?

As for suggestions that are far from home, you started with Michigan and Purdue in your very first post. Last time I checked, they’re pretty far from the great country of Texas. :))

Lastly, it’s really hard to know how “smart” most kids are these days based on the rampant grade inflation and teaching to the AP test that’s happening out there. I think the level is actually very high, but 4.0 and 5s on APs aren’t actually super predictive of success or ease with the workload, especially in engineering. I’m not saying that to demean your daughter in any way, but as a warning not to be complacent. Make sure that she hunts down old tests and the syllabi for any classes she wants to use AP credit for so she can review and know with certainty if it’s a good idea to skip.

My son’s Calc III class is an anecdote to support that previous paragraph. It was an invitation only honors section for students who scored 5 on the Calc BC AP test, starting first term freshman year in Calc III. On their first exam, there were plenty of scores in the 30s. None of them were dummies. They just likely overestimated their readiness and need for study based on their previous successes. Engineering is a different game, even for the brightest.

Good luck.

P.S. It’s VERY important to visit a few “Small” schools to get an idea what they will really be like. Small schools, in general, don’t feel that small. Certainly Case didn’t. Find a school close to home. Walk around. Go into the classrooms. Let her see for her self if she hasn’t so she’s forming her opinion based on something more than a numeric.

102

Not sure is this blog post has been previously discussed. I know a number of really smart engineers from WUSL, so this is no indictment on an engineering degree from WUSL because its just an anecdote, but one difference between a smaller school and a larger school might be the issue of “student consumerism”.

I think a highly ranked, large public engineering program is easily going to fill the seats in its classes with enough successful students trying to transfer or meet the requirements for a specific major. A smaller school may have concerns if too many students start to switch majors if unsuccessful in early coursework.

http://www.inside-higher-ed.com/how-competition-leads-to-content-deflation-in-one-anecdote/

103

@IlliniDad18 - I have read that blog from time to time and the author is a former math professor at WUSL.

He has a low opinion of 3-2 programs, and WUSL is one of those schools that is listed frequently as the 2 school in a 3+2 program.

But what I really raised my interest was this particular post in his blog which describes the pressure that he was put under from his department to water down the calculus class for the engineering students because engineers really do not need to understand math on a theoretical delta-epsilon basis.

When people speak of rigor, as a former mathematics student the delta-epsilon approach is what I would consider rigorous. I have meaning to start another post just to discuss what exactly is meant by rigor in an engineering education.

104

If that guy taught anything like he writes, it’s no wonder students were flailing. He can’t complete a cogent thought! In the words of the late, great John Wooden “We haven’t taught until they have learned.” Maybe that guy couldn’t teach his way out of a paper bag.

I say this in no way to support WUSTL. I have no clue about their engineering program. I say it because I had a similar situation in Organic Chemistry (back in the dawn of time when the subject was just discovered :D). The instructor was purportedly brilliant, but he was by far and away the worst teacher I had during undergrad. He was fired after a year and landed at Reed, a great program by any measure. All 500 of us were either idiots, or he wasn’t a very good teacher.

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I was not looking for a ad hominem rebuttal.

The point of the post is more that a smaller school has a greater business concern that individual students matriculate through the program. A larger school still has resources available to help struggling students (such as professional societies have review sessions before exams at UIUC), but might not be as concerned about whether a particular individual transfers/fails out of engineering because there are plenty of non-engineering students waiting in the wings, that have already been successful academically in the required coursework.

106

@IlliniDad18 - I have a friend who is a full professor of psychology at a college that is a tuition-dependent institution and he gets some pressure on grading. Colleges need to keep the seats filled to keep on going if they don’t have the endowment to fall back on.

107

@eyemgh, did you read a different article than I did? The one linked by @IlliniDad18 seemed pretty clear to me. A math professor takes over calculus course from engineering school. Having a course results in income for a department. Students complain and the engineering department head planned to use his more rigorous form of the course to justify taking the course back for his department. The professor’s own department head tried to him to water down his course so that they could keep it and not lose that funding.

108

@boneh3ad, I completely understood what he was trying to convey. It’s clear he’s not an English professor. It’s also clear that he was blaming the students for their lack of ability to handle the complexity, when in fact he might simply be a crappy teacher. If he had a great track record in his math department, which we don’t know, because he didn’t cite any of his bona fides, that might point to the engineers at WUSTL being soft. All I’m saying is that article didn’t tell me much other than the guy was p*ssed and certainly didn’t see any role for himself.

The main reason that schools that “weed out” do so is simply because their state laws require them to admit their state’s students, prepared or not. Those who are ready get through. Those who aren’t, don’t. It’s much more of an indictment of the high schools in those states than the Universities.

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It’s not a matter of engineers at WUSTL being “soft”, but of engineers in general being “soft”. Most math professors would likely tell you that the version of calculus taken by many engineers is not the most rigorous, e.g. the delta-epsilon proofs cited up there by @smokinact. They don’t need to be that rigorous for the vast majority of engineers.

I’d also say that the article does say more than what you are claiming. It says that education is a business, and sometimes business interests get in the way of academic interests at universities, and that is a real shame, though perhaps a necessary shame.

110

Last year, my daughter really had no clue as to where she wanted to go to school. She knew she wanted a big school, no small school. Finances were a major consideration for us and she refused to go up north. So she cast her net wide to many southern schools and I made her apply to some schools she said “no way”. Between the fall and spring when decisions needed to be made she did a reversal and poo pooed where she thought she would attend with a full ride. It wasn’t until the reality of decision time that she reluctantly visited Tech and decided it was the best fit. I think sometimes accepted student receptions offer kids a better feel for “is this me” then a tour earlier in their college search. At the accepted student receptions your son/daughter can meet their future potential fellow students and decide if they fit in. I think more than anything fit with the student body is what leads to a happy student. She thought she wanted to be the big fish but with soul searching she decided against the big fish idea and liked being surrounded by a never ending supply of intellectuals to talk about the world with. She hated stress in high school, wasn’t a big fan of spending her life studying but is happy as a clam and doing academically very well. So if you daughter is unsure cast the net wide don’t worry now and when the acceptances roll in visit those new student receptions and I think a light bulb will go off.

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“I think more than anything fit with the student body is what leads to a happy student.” "So if you daughter is unsure cast the net wide don’t worry now and when the acceptances roll in visit those new student receptions and I think a light bulb will go off. "

Words of wisdom, @scubadive Thanks!

BTW, yes Purdue and Michigan are far, far away from the Great State of Texas, but we’ve seen them, so D might be able to make some decisions on them as they are compared to others. With closer schools, we could drive there for a long weekend soon and check it out. So if anyone has knowledge of the engineering schools at UT-Dallas, SMU, Baylor, OU, UTulsa… please let me know if we should consider them.

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If OU is Oklahoma (Normal, OK), I can dredge up some old/2006 memories when older DD was looking at colleges. A local college coach felt it was an up-and-coming place, good choice for scholarship (especially if NMF).

113

The counselor we had our son work with (so he didn’t grow to hate us for harping on him to get stuff done :wink: ) was high on Tulsa based on potential merit aid and decent engineering department.

The discussion is veering pretty radically though from your original post, high achiever, top schools like Michigan and Purdue to UT-Dallas. What exactly is SHE looking for?

114

It would seem like it’s veering radically, but we are trying to ascertain if these smaller schools (possibly with more hands-on support) closer to home have good engineering programs, since we have the bigger ones close to home on the list already. We have two large engineering schools far away (Purdue, Michigan) on the list and I’ve given D the CC recommendations of smaller ones (again, possibly with more hands-on support) that are far away to possibly add. The end result should be a variety of engineering schools (too many), but at this point, they’ll have to be sorted out after applications.

D hasn’t toured UT-Dallas, but friends from her school says it’s challenging and they have great support with lots of opportunities. It’s not too small. It’s a fair haul away from home (remember, this is Texas.) It’s free with NMF. Those are things I’ve heard that D likes, but if it’s not going to give her the education she needs, then free isn’t a good deal.

115

@Commiserating For what it’s worth…my ChemE husband (Case grad) has worked with U of Tulsa engineering department on a project for work for years. He routinely says he is “not impressed” with U of Tulsa engineering.

I know this tidbit is of little use to you. He did his entire junior year abroad at the University of Edinburgh through an special engineering program with Case/Edinburgh which I believe is still in existence. So a bulk of his engineering classes were at Edinburgh. He has always said the classes at Edinburgh were absolutely outstanding.

116

I can’t really say too much about the engineering programs at SMU, Baylor and Tulsa but my d did apply to all three. Tulsa gave a lot of merit aid and she never did see the school. SMU she just didn’t dig. For her it seemed to uppity. Baylor she loved but didn’t get enough merit aid to make it a logical choice. What about the university of Miami or its Miami university can never get it straight but it’s in Miami. They have a n engineering school and it’s a medium size school.

117

Another possible idea to look at is Lehigh.

118

I’d back up a bit.

First, and I may have missed this already being stated in the thread, but she needs to decide what type of engineering she wants. Not all schools offer everything. For instance, if she wants Aerospace, the last narrows down to 50 or so with that answer alone.

Next, know that if its ABET accredited, she’ll be OK. They set a minimum standard. There’s certainly variation among programs, but they can’t really just suck or they’ll get their accreditation pulled. That’s the baseline.

Rural? Suburban? Urban? Maybe this doesn’t matter.

How about weather? For a Texan, for anyone for that matter Michigan and Purdue will be DAMN cold. Will that matter?

What hobbies does she like? Hiking? Skiing? Surfing? Art? Theater?

Is she absolutely certain that engineering is it or should she pick a school with a broad array of majors just in case?

How far is she willing to be from home? Sometimes distance isn’t a great big deal if the school is close to a major air hub and she’s willing to fly.

How big does she want her school to be? This can be a large range. For my son, WPI at 3000ish was as small as he’d go and Utah at just over 30k was as big as he’d go. He really wanted something inbetween, but knew FOR CERTAIN that Olin was too small and Arizona State was too big.

Class sizes. Is she willing to have any classes over 500? 200? 100? Again, this can be a range.

Once she answers every thing she can think of that really doesn’t have anything to do with the quality of the program per se, she’ll be left with a much more manageable list that will still have plenty of options. Most importantly, it won’t be USNWR’s rank or CC’s rank of what ever, it’ll be her custom list.

Then, and really only then, she can narrow and then rank based on reputations for quality.

119

Great outline @eyemgh. We considered those factors, but for us limiting geography helped our daughter focus her list.

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We as parents are a long way away, we as parents wanted/needed her to be close to some people that she knows and this has helped our whole family cope with the transition.