Which is better: a 3.0 at HYPS or a 4.0 at a state school?

<p>First, I want to be clear about terminology. I believe that there are very few, if any, bad students at any of the colleges under discussion. A high school performance that would place one in the bottom quarter at Berkeley might still earn one a merit scholarship at many fine colleges. So I am NOT talking about "bad" students. Getting into Berkeley is quite an accomplishment, and should not be dismissed. However, it is even harder to get into Stanford, and other elite privates, and the grade distributions reflect the strength of the student bodies.</p>

<p>So the question is whether, given the same performance, one would get a different grade at Stanford than at Berkeley. Since no one actually takes the same course at both places, one cannot answer this question directly. It must be inferred from related data. We know that the distribution of grades at both colleges is remarkably similar, but that the distribution of high school qualifications is not similar, but rather much higher at Stanford. I take this to indicate easier grading at UCB. Sakky says that his interest is what happens at the bottom of the distribution. For those who end up at the bottom, are they more likely to flunk out at UCB or at Stanford? </p>

<p>I don't have grade distribution data for Stanford, so I have been using Princeton as a proxy. At P, D's and F's account for ~1.5% of all grades. At UCB "less than 5% were D's or F's". So one can be somewhat higher in the overall ranking and still get a D or F at UCB than at S (again assuming S is similar to P). Now, does this small difference in percent D and F at an elite private vs an elite public make up for the large difference in the composition of the bottom of the class? To me, the answer would be "no, there are so many students at UCB who would not be admitted to S (or P) that one would have expected a much larger portion of D's and F's at UCB if they gave that grade to students who performed at the bottom of the S or P distribution". </p>

<p>I illustrated one very crude pass at the question: take away enough UCB students to eliminate that large cohort who would not be admitted to S or P, then look at the grades of those who are left. But to do this one would have to eliminate more than the bottom quarter. Since few colleges publish the distribution of high school qualifications in enough detail to attempt to fully equalize the student bodies, I started with the bottom quarter at UCB. Even this incomplete adjustment is revealing. Just eliminating the bottom quarter of grades gets rid every grade below B.</p>

<p>One could argue that truly terrible performance at UCB earns an F, but that comparable performance would be rewarded with a C at Stanford. Given the rarity of D and F grades at both places, and the much lower student distribution at UCB, I do not find that persuasive. Instead, it seems likely that there are lots of students at UCB who would be hard pressed to keep up at S or P who are not only passing, but are getting B's in many of their courses.</p>

<p>None of this is to deny that classes are smaller at S and P, certainly they are. Not to deny that the elite privates pay more attention to their undergrads, that there is more contact with professors, more academic support, and an overall better academic experience- at the prices they charge they had better add value to the UCB offering.</p>

<p>But the data do not support the idea that the same student, turning in the same performance, would get a higher grade at S or P, anywhere along the distribution from the top to the bottom. In fact, given very small differences in grade distribution, extremely low rates of D and F grades, but large differences in high school preparation, the grading seems a tad easier at B than at these elite privates.</p>

<p>for connections, jobs, and a better college experience and education, the 3.0 at hyps wins out. if your sole purpose for college is to use it as a stepping stone to graduate school, then the 4.0 at the state school would be a better situation.</p>

<p>however, you make what you can with each situation. everyone is different.</p>

<p>i agree...my friend goes to Cal Berk</p>

<p>i go to cornell</p>

<p>we both took the same math class, Calculus 1, exact same level</p>

<p>my math sat: 760, his: 800
our sat IIs were pretty much the same</p>

<p>we had similer grades in math in high school</p>

<p>the college result</p>

<p>he got a B!!!!, i got an A...that tells u something</p>

<p>Wonderful! One data point. With a few thousand more, we might be able to draw a conclusion. By the way, did you check to see which of you actually has a better mastery of the material?</p>

<p>um...his AP calc score was also MUCH higher than mine</p>

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At UCB "less than 5% were D's or F's".

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<p>Is this the report from the college of Letters and sciences, or from all the colleges on campus?</p>

<p>Did you take into account the difference in SAT gathering between the two schools (best combined vs. best single sitting)?</p>

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but large differences in high school preparation

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<p>Could you demonstrate that? So far, all you’ve done is shown Stanford’s average SAT I scores (best combined) against Berkeley’s (best single sitting), and now you’re extending that to high school preparation (not even working with number of AP classes taken or any other factor) with an unnamed number of schools (10? 20?). Which “elite privates” are you referring to?</p>

<p>
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We know that the distribution of grades at both colleges is remarkably similar,

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<p><a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com/stanford.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com/stanford.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.gradeinflation.com/berkeley.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gradeinflation.com/berkeley.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Do you think that these average GPAs are “remarkably similar?”</p>

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Is this the report from the college of Letters and sciences, or from all the colleges on campus?

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<p>I cited the source. It appears to be all of UCB, not just L&S</p>

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Did you take into account the difference in SAT gathering between the two schools (best combined vs. best single sitting)?

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<p>Both sets of SAT scores were drawn from the common data sets. This has nothing to do with how the college uses SAT scores for admissions purposes, it simply reports the SAT scores of the people who end up there. Therefore, they are comparable.</p>

<p>
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We know that the distribution of grades at both colleges is remarkably similar,

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</p>

<p>See the discussion above. I am citing the distribution of grades as reported at UCB and at Princeton, which reported its grade distribution. By "distribution" I mean the proportion of grades that were A's, B's, etc. Both UCB and Princeton reported 85% A's or B's. Princeton reported under 2% D's and F's. UCB reported "less than 5%" D's and F's.</p>

<p>One of the problems with grade inflation.com is the age of some of the data. Given that it shows rising grades over time, at different rates in different colleges, comparing old data from different times can be confusing.</p>

<p>What was "remarkable" was the nearly identical number of A's and B's between two places, one of which apparently has a reputation for "grade inflation" and the other of which apparently has a reputation for "tough grading". </p>

<p>I agree one would love to compare SAT II's, AP's, etc. However, I don't know of any source of this data. SAT I data is available so that is what I used. SAT I data also correlates highly with these other measures (approximately 0.84 between SAT I and SAT II), so I doubt that adding them would change much (<a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/research/pdf/rdreport200_3920.pdf)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/research/pdf/rdreport200_3920.pdf)&lt;/a>. See the references on grade prediction I cited above. If you have access to data on AP's or other items, please contribute it to the discussion.</p>

<p>What is really remarkable is that nearly every elite college, public or private, has an average GPA in the range between a B+ and an A-. This is without any formal policy within most colleges, let alone across colleges. This suggests that the top colleges gravitate towards this as their norm, and ignore differences in the entering qualifications among their students.</p>

<p>afan,</p>

<p>The problem is that Berkeley only uses the highest sitting, whereas many privates will take the highest subsectional scores from many sittings. Though the difference is not usually found to be large (I think Alexandre showed a difference of around 50 points, on average), it's there.</p>

<p>Both of you have a big problem using the SAT as an indicator: the correlation is incredibly low for the first year (R: 0.35) and gets lower afterwards.</p>

<p>I mean, we don't have much else to work with, but that's an important thing to consider.</p>

<p>UC, </p>

<p>We are talking about two different things. You are talking about how the college employs the SAT scores for admissions purposes. So looking at best combination may result in higher apparent scores than looking at best single sitting score. I am talking about the distribution of SAT scores of enrolled students, as reported uniformly on the CDS. This has nothing to do with how the college evaluated the applications. These figures are comparable no matter how the college chose to interpret the scores.</p>

<p>It is true that SAT explains a low proportion of the variance in GPA (for all years, not just first year). However, it is the only thing we have that is standardized across high schools and colleges, that is readily available, and that correlates at all. So it is the best available. As noted, it also is highly correlated with other predictors. The alternative is to pretend that differences in the academic strength of enrolled students does not exist, but this attributes differences in performance to college factors rather than student factors.</p>

<p>To get way back to the OP. I agree, as was said long ago, that 3.0 vs 4.0 is wholly unrealistic. There is no comparison. But two equal GPA's from a top elite private and a mid level state school (NOT Berkeley), would depend on what the person evaluating was looking for. If they were looking to hire an engineer in state, and the mid level state school had a good engineering program, hiring the local kid might be the default answer anyway. This may be even more true if State offers a practical go-out-and-work engineering program and Elite Private offers (or was thought to offer) a theoretical go-invent-a-new-kind-of-proton program. </p>

<p>If it was another elite private graduate school evaluating, they might lean towards the elite private grad- again depending on what kind of graduate program they were headed for. </p>

<p>I tend to assume that anyone who graduates from a huge state school must be much more independent than graduates from the elite privates. This is necessary to survive in that environment. How much that matters depends on what they are looking to do next.</p>

<p>My real point is that you cannot look at small differences in average GPA and interpret them as reflecting differences in grading policy across the university without taking into account differences in the academic preparation of the students. For all its weaknesses, SAT does reflect academic preparation. If you are serious about analyzing grades, then you have to take this into account.</p>

<p>afan, I know too many really-hard-working students who were very smart and did average on standardized tests to agree that the SAT accurately reflects academic preperation full-stop. I think it's an important measure, certainly, and telling of something (mainly how well one did on the SAT), but I think it only somewhat shows academic preparation. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I think.</p>

<p>
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But the data do not support the idea that the same student, turning in the same performance, would get a higher grade at S or P, anywhere along the distribution from the top to the bottom. In fact, given very small differences in grade distribution, extremely low rates of D and F grades, but large differences in high school preparation, the grading seems a tad easier at B than at these elite privates

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</p>

<p>I think you are not taking an expansive enough look at what is meant by 'the data'. The data is not simply about the grades itself, but the entire attitudes of the school towards students.</p>

<p>To wit: I know a number of students at the elite private schools who have run into problems - psychological problems, personal problems, romantic problems, and whatnot. The school gave them every opportunity to work through their issues, and even gave them quite generous leaves of absence to do so. They will waive classes, allow you to drop them late, and so forth. </p>

<p>Contrast that with the attitudes expressed by many public schools. I will use Berkeley as the example. I know one guy who found out his girlfriend was cheating on him the night before a major exam. Obviously he was going out of his mind. But the prof didn't care. He had to take the exam anyway, and unsurprisingly, he ended up failing the exam. Again, the prof didn't care. This was a good solid kid, who under normal circumstances could have turned in a quite fine performance on the exam. But these were clearly not normal circumstances. But Berkeley didn't care that they weren't normal circumstances. </p>

<p>Contrast that with a guy I know at Princeton who had issues of a personal psychological nature. In each case, the profs were willing to reschedule his exams, drop classes, give him Incomplete grades (so he could complete the work at a later date), and so forth. </p>

<p>See, afan, that's the difference in what we're talking about. You are talking solely about the talent levels of the students and how those talent levels are expressed in terms of grades. I agree with you that the average student at Berkeley is not as good as the average student at Stanford. </p>

<p>What I am talking about is the fact that there is a lot of randomness associated with academic performance. If the night before an exam, you find out that the love of your life had slept with someone else, your exam performance is going to be poor. Plenty of students have bad things happen to them. In normal circumstances, they would be perfectly strong and solid students. But some of them just have bad luck. But schools like Berkeley don't care about that. According to Berkeley, you either get high exam scores, or you don't, and if you don't, then we don't care why you don't. So if you not scoring well just because you're having a personal problem, that's too bad for you. </p>

<p>In other words, poor grades do not reflect JUST students with low talent. They reflect those students AND those students who have plenty of talent but are suffering from bad luck. </p>

<p>And this gets back to my older posts in this thread. While obviously nobody can prove anything either way, I strongly suspect that certain students at Berkeley who flunked out could have passed at the elite private schools. That's because the reason why they flunked out had a lot to do with bad luck. At a school like Stanford, even having terrible luck is not going to hurt you that badly. Like I said, the worst you will get is a C. But at Berkeley, if you have a run of bad luck, you're toast. The worst part about it is that nobody can ever know that they won't run into bad luck. Hence, going to Stanford is, if nothing else, an insurance policy. Even with terrible luck, you are still going to get a degree. For example, (just making something up here) if you found out that your girlfriend had an orgy with all of your best friends and some farm animals the night before your finals and the whole thing was videotaped and being sold over the Internet, then while you'll probably do extremely poorly on your exams, you'll still get a (barely) passing grade. You can't say that about Berkeley.</p>

<p>So does Berkeley or an ivy league prepare you for the real world...</p>

<p>Sakky, I think that there is a difference in what the average top private and the average top public school might do, I don't think it's as stark as you make it seem (people can get incompletes for some reasons, for instance, I know a few who did). Berkeley isn't monolithically apathetic, but I would agree that it's less caring, less willing to help generally than a top private school.</p>

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So does Berkeley or an ivy league prepare you for the real world...

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<p><em>shrug</em> What real world are you talking about?</p>

<p>I certainly agree that the large state universities, no matter how elite, cannot possibly offer the kind of personal attention that one gets at the top privates. The student faculty ratios alone make this out of the question. As I said, the elite publics are a fantastic deal, especially if you pay instate tuition. However, to a far greater extent than at the privates, you are on your own.</p>

<p>William and Mary? 11:1. It's not included in the "large state universities," although it certainly is in the "elite publics." Admittingly, this is the biggest exception to the rule, and is an eception to the rule of students to faculty ratios of elits publics (often 16-18:1) and elite privates (usually about 4-10:1).</p>