<p>
As someone who has no strong feelings either way about Notre Dame, I find myself agreeing with you. To be honest, I was surprised Notre Dame compares that well.</p>
<p>Yet most people noted College F as an outlier as well as College C to a lesser extent. I focused more on the objective stats of the students and less on qualities such as endowment and FinAid and saw that C was only comparable to D.</p>
<p>“I said that the data set would include the non-HYP Ivies and Notre Dame. It did. I added a lesser school to see if people would employ their preconceived notions and latch onto it as showing Notre Dame as clearly weaker and as proof that the Ivies are stronger.”</p>
<p>In other words you tricked people to obtain an opinion you desired…hmm this is very legit.</p>
<p>hawkette, thats like pitting these IQ scores against eachother:
140
139
120
135
145
95
137</p>
<p>Obviously the attention is drawn to the single sub 100 score…everyone will talk about the 95. Just because the 95 isnt “Elite” doesnt mean that the 120 is “elite”… all the others are 135-145.</p>
<p>Just go watch some football…(from the 50’s when Notre Dame was any good)</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In response to the bolded portion, no it didn’t. That’s the best way to identify Notre Dame out of that group. Its high acceptance rate and high yield suggest together being a regional (Midwest, in this case) power, but not having the national draw of the others.</p>
<p>Also, your little experiment with Michigan failed miserably because people can count to 6.</p>
<p>
I pride myself in that ability :)</p>
<p>buddy said that he thought that College didn’t really fit. Other than that, I didn’t read any dissent. Whatever.</p>
<p>Anyway, let’s take another look at the data. </p>
<p>Freshmen Retention , 4 Yr Grad Rate , 6 Yr Grad Rate , College </p>
<p>98.5% , 87% , 95% , College A which is Columbia
97.5% , 84% , 94% , College B which is Brown
97.5% , 91% , 96% , College C which is Notre Dame
96.2% , 87% , 93% , College D which is Cornell
98.0% , 88% , 95% , College E which is U Penn
96.0% , 70% , 88% , College F which is U Michigan
98.0% , 86% , 95% , College G which is Dartmouth</p>
<p><20 , 20-50 , >50 , S/F , College</p>
<p>77.2% , 14.4% , 8.4% , 6/1 , College A
70.6% , 20.2% , 9.2% , 8/1 , College B
55.0% , 35.6% , 9.4% , 12/1 , College C which is Notre Dame
58.1% , 25.1% , 16.8% , 10/1 , College D
72.9% , 19.8% , 7.3% , 6/1 , College E
45.9% , 36.3% , 17.8% , 15/1 , College F
62.5% , 28.8% , 8.7% , 8/1 , College G</p>
<p>SAT 25 - SAT 75 , ACT 25 - ACT 75 , College</p>
<p>1360 - 1550 , 29 - 34 , College A
1320 - 1540 , 28 - 33 , College B
1320 - 1500 , 31 - 34 , College C which is Notre Dame
1300 - 1500 , 29 - 33 , College D
1330 - 1520 , 30 - 33 , College E
1220 - 1430 , 27 - 31 , College F
1330 - 1550 , 29 - 34 , College G</p>
<p>700+ on CR , 700+ on Math , 30+ on ACT , College</p>
<p>64% , 66% , 73% , College A
58% , 66% , 66% , College B
50% , 64% , 88% , College C which is Notre Dame
41% , 64% , 69% , College D
52% , 70% , 76% , College E
22% , 46% , 44% , College F
65% , 67% , 73% , College G</p>
<p>Top 10% , Acceptance Rate , Yield , College</p>
<p>94% , 10.0% , 60% , College A
93% , 13.7% , 55% , College B
87% , 26.7% , 54% , College C which is Notre Dame
88% , 20.7% , 46% , College D
99% , 16.9% , 63% , College E
92% , 42.2% , 46% , College F
90% , 13.5% , 49% , College G </p>
<p>T&F , % Getting FA , Need Met , % Borrow , Amount of Indebtedness , College</p>
<p>$41,316 , 48% , 100% , na , na , College A
$38,848 , 44% , 100% , 44% , $19,390 , College B
$38,477 , 47% , 100% , 57% , $29,835 , College C which is Notre Dame
$37,954 , 39% , 100% , 46% , $24,750 , College D
$38,970 , 43% , 100% , 41% , $19,085 , College E
$35,391 , 50% , 90% , 46% , $25,586 , College F
$38,679 , 49% , 100% , 52% , $20,126 , College G</p>
<p>Per Capita Endowment , College</p>
<p>na , College A
$333,977 , College B
$541,459 , College C which is Notre Dame
$275,149 , College D
$327,756 , College E
$181,883 , College F
$674,475 , College G</p>
<p>Alumni Giving Rank , College</p>
<p>13 , College A
7 , College B
4 , College C which is Notre Dame
20 , College D
10 , College E
79 , College F
3 , College G</p>
<p>Quality of teaching as judged by the students , College</p>
<p>A , College A
A , College B
A- , College C which is Notre Dame
A- , College D
A , College E
B+ , College F
A+ , College G</p>
<p>Where do you think Notre Dame is lacking in comparison to the non-HYP Ivies? The only place where I see clear weakness is in the Class Size data and the S/F ratio. Otherwise, ND looks pretty comparable to me (don’t forget that they get about half of their standardized tests data from the ACT). </p>
<p>Omega,
I would have to search my older spreadsheets, but your comment on ND being a regional power is waaaaaaaay off the mark. My guess is that it’s the most geographically diverse school of this entire bunch. Notre Dame very much draws from a national applicant pool and has great alumni reception in nearly every corner of the USA, probably more so than any of the non-HYP Ivies.</p>
<p>
While I agree that ND is certainly not just a “regional powerhouse”, the rest of your comments seem entirely unsubstantiated.</p>
<p>
Selectivity and SAT scores?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I would need to see this. It’s entirely possible you are right, but it just seems unlikely.</p>
<p>Additionally, as an addendum to my previous comment, being a draw for other characteristics (such as being an all black college or being a religiously affiliated college) also tend to result in high acceptance rate and high yields. Again, this suggests it has less of a national draw than the others, which I think is the real difference maker.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s necessary for me to respond to this as it doesn’t contradict anything I said, but Notre Dame is certainly a regional powerhouse, and possibly more, but I think it definitely lacks the national appeal the others do (though Hawkette apparently disagrees).</p>
<p>jersey,
On standardized tests, ND can make an argument for being the strongest of the bunch. One measurement that I have done in the past is to take the % of 700+ scorers in Verbal + % of 700+ scorers in Math + 2 x % of 30+ scorers on the ACT. Doing that, here is how they compare:</p>
<p>276% , Columbia
256% , Brown
290% , Notre Dame
243% , Cornell
274% , U Penn
156% , U Michigan
278% , Dartmouth</p>
<p>^ That measurement makes no sense to me whatsoever. Why would you include ACT scores in an SAT comparison?</p>
<p>And thus:
I disagree. The percentage of ND students with 700+ M/CR is only comparable to Cornell, whose numbers are most likely depreciated due to it’s unique mix of private and state-funded undergraduate colleges. The same holds true for the 25%-75% range of SAT scores.</p>
<p>Also, I actually don’t think Notre Dame is lacking too much in SATs or anything, but it is important to note that Notre Dame has a 48% SAT reporting rate and a 52% ACT reporting rate. This further suggests regionality to me though, based on the SAT/ACT popularity splits in the nation. The Ivies should all have high 80s or 90s in SAT reporting rate. Northwestern has an 80% reporting rate and Chicago has an 85% reporting rate, in case you wanted to compare to some other colleges in the Midwest.</p>
<p>However, one thing that has me worried is that Notre Dame’s two percentages sum to 100%. This doesn’t happen with any other college, as some people take both the SAT and ACT and report both of them. This suggests that Notre Dame may also report its numbers differently or has a “one or the other” admissions policy… These are both likely to skew the statistics in Notre Dame’s favor.</p>
<p>EDIT: Further research shows Dartmouth also does this (75% SAT reporting rate, 25% ACT reporting rate), but none of the others do (including Northwestern, Chicago and Michigan).</p>
<p>omega,
I’ve noticed this difference in reporting at lots of schools. USNWR reports this number and the ND/Dartmouth pattern is the minority, but plenty of schools do it (Georgetown, Tufts, Wake, NYU, W&M, many others). Given the way that this is reported, it does make it more difficult to interpret the regionality of the applicant pool, but IPEDS publishes their enrollment by geography. Here is what I have for Notre Dame from a spreadsheet that I did two years ago. The numbers may have shifted slightly since then. </p>
<p>37% Midwest (incl. 7% IS from Indiana)
24% Northeast
24% South/Southwest
11% West
4% International</p>
<p>jersey,
I think you’re maybe a tougher grader than I am or you assign greater import to very small differences, but I think that ND compares pretty well to the others. Here is the breakdown by SAT section and by ACT. </p>
<p>CR 25 - CR 75 , College</p>
<p>680 - 770 , Columbia
650 - 760 , Brown
650 - 740 , Notre Dame
630 - 730 , Cornell
650 - 740 , U Penn
580 - 690 , U Michigan
660 - 770 , Dartmouth</p>
<p>Math 25 - Math 75 , College</p>
<p>680 - 780 , Columbia
670 - 780 , Brown
670 - 760 , Notre Dame
670 - 770 , Cornell
680 - 780 , U Penn
640 - 740 , U Michigan
670 - 780 , Dartmouth</p>
<p>ACT 25-ACT 75, College</p>
<p>29 - 34 , Columbia
28 - 33 , Brown
31 - 34 , Notre Dame
29 - 33 , Cornell
30 - 33 , U Penn
27 - 31 , U Michigan
29 - 34 , Dartmouth</p>
<p>30+ on the ACT? That’s more like a 600 on the SAT than a 700.</p>
<p>And this conversation really seems to cement the idea that a few Ivies are certainly more elite than the others. You can make a reasonable argument (although one I disagree with) for Notre Dame to be grouped in with the lower Ivies, but its much harder for it to compare to HYPSM.</p>
<p>hawkette is the only person that believes ND is elite…so can we move on</p>
<p>^Nope… I also believe top 20 to top 25 schools can be considered elite. So, keep discussing.</p>
<p>Well ND is ranked the 20th Univ…throw in the top 8 LAC’s and its out of the top 25 schools soooooooo…</p>
<p>The LAC arent that elite anyway. So, I would only consider the top 5 LAC as elite. Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Wellesley, Pomona.</p>