<p>Its pretty obvious that this country would be better off with more ND grads in positions of power.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Students are one factor, let’s look at faculty:</p>
<h1>National Academy of Science members, school:</h1>
<p>151 , Harvard
130 , Berkeley
124 , Stanford
113 , MIT
73 , Princeton
58 , Yale
44 , Columbia
39 , Cornell
28 , U Penn
23 , U Michigan
10 , Brown
2 , Dartmouth</p>
<p>0 , Notre Dame</p>
<p>Don’t forget school “F” UCB!</p>
<p>^ What’s school F?</p>
<p>The Ivy apologists always resort to trying to shift the discussion back to graduate schools and graduate research statistics etc when comparing schools instead of sticking with undergraduate comparisons.</p>
<p>For instance, no one disputes that the Ivies have some prestigious law schools. What does that have to do with their undergraduate ranking/quality?</p>
<p>School “F” was the decoy (aka, Michigan) used by Hawkette.</p>
<p>^ Oh, right. Heh, already added that bogey.</p>
<p>alex,
It’s clear where Presidents go to college? </p>
<p>You mean, like Eureka College, for Ronald Reagan? </p>
<p>Or Whittier College for Richard Nixon? </p>
<p>Or SW Texas State for Lyndon Johnson??</p>
<p>Maybe Ivy college affiliation is a political benefit in the very Blue states of New England/Northeast, but Americans outside of the NE don’t assign anywhere near the same value to the Ivy degree/label. Non-Americans often don’t appreciate this as their societies are typically far more status conscious than the USA. Large swaths of America don’t see it like that. </p>
<p>Americans historically don’t trust government and, given the events of the past few years, this resentment/distrust is building. To the extent that the Ivies are associated with government and its leadership, that is presently not a good thing for them in the country at large.</p>
<p>Shank and Hawk, you guys are so funny.</p>
<p>“Maybe Ivy college affiliation is a political benefit in the very Blue states of New England/Northeast, but Americans outside of the NE don’t assign anywhere near the same value to the Ivy degree/label.”</p>
<p>That’s why most US presidents of the 20th-21st centuries have attended elite universities (most of them Ivies). </p>
<p>Teddy R = Columbia and Harvard
Taft = Yale
Wilson = Princeton
Coolidge = Amherst
Hoover = Stanford
FDR = Harvard and Columbia
Eisenhower = West Point
Kennedy = Harvard
JB Johnson = SW Texas State
Nixon = Duke (for Law school)
Ford = Michigan and Yale
Carter = USNA
Reagan = Eureka
George H. W. Bush = Yale
Clinton = Georgetown and Yale
George W. Bush: Yale and Harvard
Obama = Columbia</p>
<p>LBJ and Reagan are the only two US presidents that did not attend elite universities. 15 of the 17 attended elite universities and 10 of the 17 presidents attended Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>Alexandre, how very true and its not Notre Dame</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>shanka, Princeton does not have a law school.</p>
<p>how would you like to compare Notre Dame’s undergraduate education with Princeton’s?</p>
<p>oops, you already have and stated that ND’s is much better</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>shanka, lets talk again about how you were comparing Notre Dame with ALL of the Ivies, including Harvard, Princeton and Yale:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064867345-post210.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064867345-post210.html</a></p>
<p>**“The Ivies are overrated. For undergrad education and experience, atmosphere, ND does not take a back seat to anyone”</p>
<p>" I would put ND up against ANY Ivy in terms of undergraduate education."</p>
<p>“in terms of UNDERGRADUATE education, ND is right up there with any Ivy. The Ivies don’t stress undergrad, its all about graduate research. At ND, its about the undergrad. You are taught by profs at ND, not TAs trying to write their thesis. ND has all the advantages and resources of a major university but teaches in the manner of a small liberal arts college”**</p>
<p>
Truman did not attend any university.</p>
<p>Ouch!</p>
<p>
…</p>
<p>anyone have the stats on NMF’s?</p>
<p>that would probably be on par with attending ND, wouldn’t it?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Alex,
The first half of the 20th century in America might as well be ancient history. It was a different time in America and the old social/educational/economic/political networks controlled much of American commerce and politics. An Ivy label carried a lot more weight then and was well supported by the media powers who had a very strong and decisive role in deciding what the people would know. Major media like the NYT and the major TV networks, heavily staffed and led by Ivy grads, were a major part of what created and then perpetuated the image of the Ivies. Remember Kennedy and the ridiculous-in-hindsight claims about the best and the brightest?? </p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong-I’m not saying that the Ivies weren’t good places that regularly turned out good grads, but today we have a much more diversified media and thankfully, a much better understanding of places far removed from the Ivies that also produce a lot of fine people. Ivies may have retained much of their prestige in the Northeast and among aspiring immigrants, but the elite tag has evolved to include today a much wider set of colleges. </p>
<p>Oddly, I think that Ivy prestige is much higher in most non-US countries than it is in America. Brand and status play a large role in these countries. By contrast, most Americans are much more impressed with performance than with labels. </p>
<p>JA,
For somebody who went to Princeton, you’re aren’t as aware as I’d expect. If you knew your American history, you’d know that no Catholics were elected President prior to John Kennedy. He remains America’s only Catholic President.</p>
<ul>
<li>And where did he go to college?</li>
</ul>
<p>Princeton and Harvard.</p>
<p>Yeah, but he stole the election from the Whittier guy…:)</p>