<p>hawkette, it is nice to see that you would take Duke over Harvard, Yale and Princeton, particularly because of its great sports program.</p>
<p>Hey, I hear that Notre Dame also has great football and basketball programs. Would you also take it over HYP?</p>
<p>very nice</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>John117</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>YES, ALL OF THE ABOVE</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>NOPE, ONLY ABOUT 95% OF THEM.</p>
<p>John117, well it seems then that your high school has none of those brilliant math/science types…</p>
<p>and if it is your school counselors that have not heard of CalTech, then that is just wrong…really wrong…</p>
<p>by the way, your classmates that confuse Caltech with CalPoly really belong at CalPoly…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>JohnAdams, when you were around HYP were all that existed, and sports may well have been a primitive form of cricket. Now, with people caring about both academics and basketball, it makes sense to choose a school like Stanford or Duke…</p>
<p>…see what I did there, called you old because of your name. Nice.</p>
<p>but seriously just shut up. the notre dame talk ended slightly after your presidency.</p>
<p>ok no more historical jokes im an econ major.</p>
<p>JA,
In response to your query,</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Ignoring the fact that that is not what I posted, I want to make it clear that I don’t draw the line at Duke. There are MANY colleges that I would choose for undergraduate education over ANY of the Ivies, including HYP. Prestige is way overrated and the reality is that the academic difference for students getting an undergraduate education at the top colleges is infinitesimal. </p>
<p>My preference in the college search/selection process is in the entire undergraduate experience–from the classroom to the social life to the athletic life to the connection that the college provides throughout one’s life to the typical attitudes of its students/graduates to…… For me, there is sooooooo much more to consider in choosing a college than just the name brand. It is my view that these other schools do a superior job of providing this. </p>
<p>You may ask which schools I might prefer over the Ivies? The following would be a start:</p>
<p>Stanford
Duke
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame</p>
<p>Northwestern
Rice</p>
<p>I would also include some of the top publics and their highest level scholarships, eg, the Morehead at U North Carolina, Jefferson at U Virginia, etc. </p>
<p>The fact is that while some of the Ivies may have a prestige advantage over many of these schools, there is little to no difference in the student quality coming out of any. If you’ve ever visited and/or recruited at these campuses, you’ve seen this first-hand as there are plenty of great people at all of these places who are very smart and very talented. There is not this great, big, evident divide that many on CC seem to present. </p>
<p>For students seeking the best combinations of academics/social life/athletic life, IMO Stanford, Duke, et al offer a superior package to what is available at any of the Ivies.</p>
<p>One thing I think you are missing though Hawkette is that many top firms will only visit Ivies, Stanford, etc. So even if you have a 4.0 at Notre Dame or Vandy its going to be much tougher to get in the door than a 3.6 at Dartmouth or Columbia. Was absolutely the case at the firm I worked for after college.</p>
<p>completely understandable, JohnAdams12 is unaware of hawkette’s personal priorities and preferences since hawkette keeps this matter so close to the vest.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/857547-athletic-relevance-returning-some-ivy-colleges.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/857547-athletic-relevance-returning-some-ivy-colleges.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/722281-ivy-athletics-can-they-relevant-again-major-sports-6.html?highlight=athletics[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/722281-ivy-athletics-can-they-relevant-again-major-sports-6.html?highlight=athletics</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/632814-harvard-catching-positives-athletic-life-will-other-ivies-follow.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/632814-harvard-catching-positives-athletic-life-will-other-ivies-follow.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-life/562352-fun-starts-again-college-football-top-colleges.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-life/562352-fun-starts-again-college-football-top-colleges.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/481786-why-cant-ivies-do-what-stanford-davidson-duke-vandy-nd-do.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/481786-why-cant-ivies-do-what-stanford-davidson-duke-vandy-nd-do.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/460941-winter-athletic-excellence-campus-enthusiasm-usnwr-top-30-national-universit.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/460941-winter-athletic-excellence-campus-enthusiasm-usnwr-top-30-national-universit.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/389224-athletic-life-college-football-scene.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/389224-athletic-life-college-football-scene.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/425236-winter-athletic-life-usnwr-top-30-natl-unis.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/425236-winter-athletic-life-usnwr-top-30-natl-unis.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/359084-collegiate-sports-should-part-college-search-process.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/359084-collegiate-sports-should-part-college-search-process.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/363898-academics-social-life-athletic-achievement-usnwr-top-20-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/363898-academics-social-life-athletic-achievement-usnwr-top-20-a.html</a></p>
<p>slipper, very few firms, including the Goldman Sachs’ and the McKinseys of the world, recruit purely at the Ivies and Stanford. Most of them recruit just as heavily at other private elites, such as Notre Dame, Georgetown, Chicago, Northwestern and Duke, at public elites such as Cal, Michigan and Uva and at LAC elites such as Amherst, Colgate, Davidson, Haverford, Middlebury, Swarthmore and Williams.</p>
<p>Mony,
Nice job! Thanks for pulling all of that together in one place as there is a lot of good information in some of those old threads. </p>
<p>Most important point is that no matter the number of threads, the facts don’t change, ie, the group of Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame offer a terrific combination of top academics, vibrant social life and relevant and nationally competitive athletic life. For students who value a rich undergraduate experience that encompasses all of this, these colleges would be superior choices to the Ivy colleges. </p>
<p>Slipper,
Life and quality is about a lot more than whether ABC Investment Bank has labeled your school as a target. Anyway, given the record of Wall Street over the past few years, I don’t think that being a Wall Street favorite is such a plum label. Furthermore, the real value in Wall Street placement occurs coming out of MBA school. Undergrad jobs are nice, but the real money is 5-7 years and later down the road. </p>
<p>When I meet folks from Wall Street, the best ones are those who have worked elsewhere before business school as they have a more well-rounded understanding of business. Being an I-bank analyst may be prestigious for some students at some schools, but IMO the preparation that it gives one for a career in business is, like so much on Wall Street, an inch-deep. </p>
<p>When I compare someone who is an expert in a certain business field and to someone who provides investment banking and/or research coverage and/or trading coverage, the level of knowledge/understanding is frequently materially different. The private equity guys are often the worst and I regularly see the bumpkins in ordinary businesses picking off these guys who assume that, because they went to XYZ Prestigious College, they are a lot smarter than the guy selling the business and who went to State U.</p>
<p>Hawkette,</p>
<p>That isn’t the case at all. Many of the most successful people in high finance either:</p>
<p>1) Never go to business school and after 2 years of banking at an elite firm go work at a hedge fund, in Ventrure Capital, or in PE
2) Have very strong pre-MBA banking experience and enter one of these areas after an MBA</p>
<p>Going from Vandy and working in a lesser finance role and getting an MBA is much more likely to get you a banking job after your MBA, rather than PE or working at a hedge fund. And basically this means you are a banker for life, (which is great, but the lifestyle and career curve of the other two are MUCH faster). Meanwhile the Ivy kids are much more likely to have elite banking experience before their MBA, which results in PE or hedge fund post MBA. BIG DIFFERENCE.</p>
<p>I think this, and so many other things, speak to the reason why the nuances matter so much. Only people who “know” would be aware of the drastic difference something like what I cited above makes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>HYPS may have some advantages in attracting truly exceptional students, those who combine the intellectual brilliance, drive, and winning personality it takes to start up the next Teach for America, Google, Microsoft, etc. However, those students are few in number even at those schools. If you are a garden variety smart person, no college has discovered the formula to turn you into the next Sergey Brin, Bill Gates, or Wendy Kopp. So if what you want is a first-rate education and a stimulating college experience, there really are many equally good alternatives. Which one is best for you depends on what stimulates you. For some people it’s spectator sports, for others it is something else.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You’re a tool. I can’t argue with you.</p>
<p>Slipper,
I don’t fully disagree with you. However, I think you have a more narrow, more NYC-centric, view than what I am referring to. </p>
<p>The Vandy reference is perhaps accurate as I think that recruiting at that school presently lags the quality of their student body. However, there are more than a few ways to skin a cat and taking the NYC/Greenwich hedge fund approach ain’t the only way to get there. Do you know John Arnold? If not, look him up. Plenty of Dartmouth grads would love to have his life and net worth. Or similar criticisms could be leveled at a place like Rice. Take a look at John Doerr. Didn’t seem to hold him back much. </p>
<p>In a larger sense, I would actually counsel many students, Ivy or otherwise, away from Wall Street coming out of college. You may argue that this takes them out of the path that leads most quickly to hedge fund/VC/PE heaven. Maybe. But I am seeing this in a career context and the development of the person. </p>
<p>To me, it’s tortoise and hare. He or she that is 30-40 yrs old and who has a combination of business experience to mix with some Wall Street experience is truly the most valuable. This person has so much more perspective on business and understanding the companies that they are trading/seeding/buying/selling than the type who latched on to a BB job right out of college and then never left Wall Street. I’m preaching more tortoise than hare. I concede that such an approach is unnecessary for some hares, but I wonder at the longevity and value added of their careers. Some will prosper mightily, but most will be secondary players. Unless they hit the jackpot somewhere along the way (and some will), my perception is that the tortoises will catch and pass most of them…and have a much broader view and appreciation for their work and the overall economy. You may not care about this, but I do as I like the deeper understanding.</p>
<p>hawkette, please stop grouping Duke together with Stanford</p>
<p>you are embarrassing yourself</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>hawkette, thanks again for verifyring that, for undergraduate school, you would prefer Notre Dame, UNC and Virginia over Harvard, Yale and Princeton</p>
<p>it is good to know</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Is that what it’s all about? Making the most money? What about those people for whom money isn’t the driving factor? Why should i-bank and hedge fund and mgt consultant industry recruiting practices be of any interest to them in determining which colleges are better? Your argument is very centered on certain industries, which seems quite narrow.</p>
<p>hawkette </p>
<p>since you consider the quality of athletics to be very important in choosing a college and is one of the reasons why you prefer, for undergraduate school, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Northwestern and Rice, over Harvard, Yale and Princeton, can you please tell us how these four schools compare to the Ivies in sports?</p>
<p>thanks</p>
<p>
Why are you talking about college quality? How is that relevant?</p>
<p>monydad, thanks</p>
<p>I had forgotten that hawkette was anti everything Ivy</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064915222-post628.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064915222-post628.html</a></p>