<p>goldenboy, if you look at the common data set (section B2) you will find the following international percentage among undergrads at those select universities:</p>
<p>Purdue 15%
Brown 11%
Illinois-UC 11%
Penn 11%
Princeton 11%
Harvard 10%
Yale 10%
Cornell 9%
Cal 8%
Stanford 8%
Dartmouth 7%
Duke 7%
Michigan 6%
UVa 6%
Wisconsin-Madison 6%
Northwestern 6%</p>
<p>As one can see, public universities hold their own in terms of percentages, only in the case of publics, the number of undergraduate students runs in the thousands as opposed to merely hundreds.</p>
<p>bluebayou, I was referring to institutional wealth and fiscal viability, not financial aid. You simply cannot compare financial aid practices at public universities to those at private universities. Tuition for residents (65% of the undergraduate student population) often runs between $9k-$11K compare to $40k at most private universities. Naturally, private universities must approach financial aid very differently. </p>
<p>By resources, I assumed you were referring to endowment, quality of facilities, libraries and labs, research option etc…</p>
<p>Exactly my point. That is why the term, ‘Public Ivy’, is an oxymoron, IMO. COA is an excellent deal for middle classers at the Ivies. </p>
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<p>I meant all $$ spent on undergrads. That includes financial aid. That includes $$ for individual research projects. That includes $$ for summer study abroad. That includes money for counselors/advisors. That includes lotsa help in applying for Rhodes/Fulbrights and other national awards. That includes dorms. Etc. Top private colleges just have more to offer other than just academics, with the exception of big time D1 sports. (Advising at any UC is just plain awful, including the flagships.)</p>
<p>Sure the big Unis may have state-of-art labs, but they have thousands of students trying to get into them. First dibs goes to Honors…</p>
<p>If the publics want to compete in other than academics…it will cost some serious coin. (Not that I think they should.)</p>
<p>^^^^It seems that bluebayou just assumes that ALL top public schools are in dire straits financially. Perhaps it’s true in California. It is not true for The University of Michigan.</p>
<p>Getting closer to name all the members of this future league? </p>
<p>When can we start the naming? We can’t do something as obnoxious and dumb as leaders, legends, and Losers. Been done already. Can’t decide between the Wannabe League and the Poison Ivy League.</p>
<p>By the way, I hope you realize BB does like public universities. He just tries to display some impartiality.</p>
<p>xiggi, impartiality is great, but accuracy is better. Instead of admitting his comments were wrong he continues to make sweeping statements.</p>
<p>I also agree that the term Public Ivy is pointless. Public universities such as Cal, Michigan, UNC, UVa and Wisconsin were among the best universities before the Ivy League was formed.</p>
<p>“By the way, I hope you realize BB does like public universities. He just tries to display some impartiality.”</p>
<p>Impartiality also involves looking beyond your own corner of the planet and not employing generalized statements to all schools that may/may not apply to the one’s you are most familiar with.</p>
<p>Ok, I’ll bite. Feel free to point them out. (I have clearly posted, frequently, that the top students and academics are similar. Indeed, Cal has more top SAT scorers in its Frosh class than does Harvard. Of course, Cal has a lot of lower scorers, too!)</p>
<p>Does Michigan meet full financial need to OOS students? (Does Michigan even meet the full need of instaters?)</p>
<p>Does Michigan offer on-campus housing for four years?</p>
<p>Does Michigan offer focused advising department for national awards?</p>
<p>Does Michigan offer a class, and not cancel it, if only one student enrolls?</p>
<p>Does Michigan have its own ski slope?</p>
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<p>Nope, just comparing publics with the private Ivies+S. Few other privates spend the resources on undergrads as do the Ancient Eight, or at least 7 of them (Cornell is kind of an asterisk since it has a mixed public-private budget).</p>
<p>Go down any factual list of items, and the Ivies generally have it ‘better’* because they spend more money per student. Nothing wrong with that – its a different business model, a model costs 2x as much (for some). But note, at instate prices, UC and Michigan run in the mid-$20’s. For many middle-classers, the Ivies+S, with great need-based aid, can be less expensive.</p>
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<p>Absolutely. And there are a few others close behind, such as Texas, UCLA (UC Southern Branch), & UCSD (but the latter is missing a critical element – Big Time sports).</p>
<p>rjkofnovi’s rejection from Duke must have really wounded his ego irreparably, you have my sympathy rjkofnovi. I hope you get better soon Maybe a visit to the Duke hospital would help. I’ve heard therapy also works wonders.</p>
<p>Bluebayou take the asterisk off of Cornell. That is ridiculous. It is a private institution that runs as such. It has an enormous endowment. It offers opportunities that no public university can offer. Just because it has three contract colleges doesn’t change the facts. Oy.</p>
<p>Some of you who are elevating the state of public university education have no idea about the degree of financial crisis most of them are in. They might have enjoyed the state funding before but most are facing reducing resources and serious financial restructuring. I teach at one of those prestigious public universities and I can tell you that they are not going to get more prestigious with reducing state funding and other limitations due to the necessary accountability to the citizens of their states. Private institutions do not have these constraints.</p>
<p>^ Yes, but what we may see is public universities that for all intents and purposes look more and more like private schools. More OOS and foreign students; funding increasingly from private not public sources. So a few of the flagships may eventually look more like Ivies (or like internationalized versions of Beijing University.) They’ll turn out globe-trotting public servants like John Huntsman, who will work for Ivy-educated CEO-slash-Presidents like Mitt Romney who clearly understand how these processes work.</p>
<p>I would not be surprised to see, ultimately, Vulture Capitalism applied to “directional” public institutions: schools being broken up and sold off (in some cases, even to foreign entities). </p>
<p>So more and more formerly middle class Americans won’t get liberal education for citizenship, they’ll get trade schools that spin people up for brief assignments to meet the fast-changing local & regional needs of highly efficient global firms. They’ll be permanently stateless and never own property. That way, in periods when their old skills aren’t needed, they can be moved efficiently to specialized training sites anywhere in the country.</p>
<p>Speaking of facts… The FACT (#1) is that the contract colleges of Cornell offers tuition discounts to NYS residents. (And that logically means that it will have a higher proportion of NYS matriculants.) And the FACT (#2) is that a portion of Cornell’s budget is subject to the whims of the NYS Legislature. </p>
<p>Facts 1 & 2 are unique in the Ivy League. None of the other seven colleges in the Ancient Eight offer instate discounts nor have to deal with their state legislatures for a portion of their budget dollars.</p>
<p>For some people I suppose the issue is the one that came up when Ann Coulter “outed” Keith Olbermann that his diploma was not from the “real” Cornell, the “Ivy” Cornell, but from a mere contract college. So there’s the potential for that public humiliation … but only if you go around claiming you went to Cornell without carefully specifying every time it was not the “Ivy” Cornell. </p>
<p>Conversely, if you do attend the “Ivy” Cornell, you’ll have to deal for the rest of your natural life (and who knows, maybe into the hereafter) with the awkward matter of how to assert that fact gracefully at all appropriate moments, without drawing unnecessary attention to the fact that a distinction even exists.</p>
Maybe a visit to the Duke hospital would help. I’ve heard therapy also works wonders.</p>