How about that category of person who does not have a College Confidential account and is not knowledgable of the alternatives?
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our neighbors had to sell their house (and move into a condo) to put their kid through MIT. It’s been 5 years and they have no regrets.
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My 2nd D is still a ways away from college, but based on what I see so far, she will likely be an average stats kid with no hook or talent. So, assuming our best option for her would be the commutable state school, it looks like this:
Tuition: 12,000
Books: 1,500
R&B 1st yr: 12,000 (required)
I don’t know where anyone’s finding a job / combination of jobs that allows a kid to get the kind of hours/income an earlier poster used as an example. Between talking to my D1’s HS guidance counselor and to some admission reps at colleges, along with our current HS job experience, I am getting these numbers for likely income:
10 - 15 hrs/wk during school year: $4000
Summer job: $4,000
So, 8K gross…you’re gonna pay some taxes and FICA…honestly this is my D’s first year working, hasn’t had to file a tax return yet, so I don’t know how much to adjust this number by. At any rate, assuming I’m providing a car and insurance and a cell phone, she’d still need at least $75 per week in gas to commute and work. The HS guidance counselor told me she has yet to see any of her students able to contribute more than 5K per year out of job earnings to their education…and I think that’s kind of high, but let’s go with it.
25,500 - 5000 = 20,500
13,500 - 5000 = $8,500 x 3 = 25,500
So, $46k of debt for four years at a four year school (OP’s question)
If we change the question to a 2 year CC and 2 years at 4 year school:
$4,000 - $5,000 = ($1,000) x 2 = ($2,000)
13,500 - 5000 = 8500 x 2 = 17,000
So, $15,000 of debt for 4 years. This assumes Mom and Dad are willing to pretty much cover all of students living expenses for all 4 years, except gas and a little spending money.
If Mom and Dad won’t cover the car, insurance, etc…there’s a lot more debt. And if tuition is not guaranteed for all four years, also more debt.
Key line below is 'if you actually graduate". I am not sure education makes any sense unless a student is committed to graduate and prepared adequately for their major (any remedial work done on pay as you go basis at CC, including pre-calc for engineers). And, there is likely very little to stop anyone from actually learning something in 4 years of high school … you have to have some motivation to eventually get a BS, why not start at age 14 with some energy and maybe some self-studying.
$15K in debt seems reasonable - payments of $200 a month or just driving a crappy car for 10 years (AGI to service is $21K)
$45K in debt your payments are $500 a month which requires an AGI of $42K
calculator used is http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml with default values
With this scenario, the requirement to spend 10K on room and board in year one seems excessive (although you have to credit board, since you aren’t feeding the child, and no, they don’t need a car that year).
If you actually graduate and work full time after graduation, maybe both these numbers are reasonable and not excessive.
I would personally think the $24K ish number for maximum student federal loans is reasonable, if you choose either a decent paying career or public service / loan forgiveness. $275 per month, AGI is $27K.
I think you could also make a good case that slowing the pace to 5 years to work say 25 hours a week so that you pay as you go makes some sense (contrary to all the haters off a 5 or 6 year graduation for a 4 year degree).
Student with 5 x 300 level physics classes needs to pursue merit scholarship on a serious basis, could save them 100K or more and guarantee a much better outcome and experience during college years.
It appears that the answer to my question could vary a lot by the state you live in, or even the part of the state you live in.
Certainly merit aid is a way out of this bind for some people, but I was thinking more about those who are not candidates for merit aid.
$15,000 of debt for a college education doesn’t sound like a lot, but if that’s for a person who went to CC and then a low-cost local commuter school, the earnings prospects may not be all that great. Still, it’s probably worth it.
Those that go into significant debt include someone who is borrowing essentially the entire cost of the in-state AND is allowing his kid to live at school, even though they are within a very easy commute. Apparently, he would have still had to borrow for the tuition. I think the answer is for even middle income families in states with high in-state tuition and high cost of living, sending a kid to an in-state public might be more than they can afford. Yet doing CC is seen as a negative option, especially as many are not all that good.
But it is a choice, at least to some extent. The choice comes in not requiring the kid to go to community college or to commute. One of my son’s friends did the CC to flagship route happily, but many kids are not willing to do that either because of major or due to the kid realy wanting to go away and the parents wanting to give them that experience. Is it financially smart? Probably not. But the family may consider that to be a “reasonable” choice.
Lucie, “I wished I lived in your parallel universe, @MiamiDAP, where employers in 2015 are paying for graduate degrees for all their employees! CS, engineering? MAYBE”
- I actually meant MBA more than any others as several of my co-workers are in grad. school. I also meant the D. of my friend, who lives in different state (if it is even matter?) and who is a nurse and taking on-line classes for 4 year degree paid by the hospital where she works. I also meant a S. of my other friend who actually is allowed to take a time off to earn his MBA at Harvard also being paid by his employer (currently, has non-business 4 year degree from in-state public). I am sorry to let you know that I do not live in “parallel universe”, very amazing assumption though on your part, I live in very economically depressed region of the USA, where it is very hard to obtain a job, chronic high unemployment, and, yes, companies are still paying, is not it so surprising?
I think outside of the COllege Confidential and highly engaged parental/top performing student universe, commuting to the local university and/or CC is the statistical winner.
I know a kid who got a full tuition scholarship to a local four-year university in his hometown - so he could commute. He turned it down to go to the state flagship, not within commuting distance, and he and parents will need to borrow 40+k over 4 years for him to go there.
They told everyone it was because state school has a better program for his major (and they do, but that program was at local school, too), and that “he really wants to go away…”
Okay.
So, yes, it’s definitely a choice for some people to go into debt, and they have other options.
Of course, that same local university is filled with local students who commute from home, and are there because that is basically their absolute only choice. Lots of first-gen students there with parents who not only never went to college, but some who’ve never even had full-time employment at one job. I doubt some of these kids had enough savings, from their own high school jobs, or their parents’, to pay the full cost. The good news is if they had good grades, the school apparently gives good merit aid.
Let me just note that I don’t think debt is necessarily unreasonable. After all, we expect people to go into debt to buy cars and houses. The question is always how much debt is reasonable, and how difficult it is going to be to service the debt. $40,000 of debt for a college education may not be that much, or it may be crushing, depending on the family circumstances, and on the career path of the student.
@MiamiDAP, it is. Few companies have generous tuition-reimbursement programs these days.
@MiamiDAP, I’m not saying there aren’t employers who will pay for MBAs or other degrees, just that they’re certainly not the norm and that the vast majority of people do not have such an option at their disposal. Seriously, what percentage of US employers offer to cover the cost of an MBA? It’s typically larger companies and the rate has been going down for years. And don’t a lot of employers expect you to lay out the money up front and then reimburse you after you’ve completed the course or degree?
Does anyone know what the four-year graduation rates are (and by this I mean four years of actual attendance, i.e., eight full semesters) for students who do two years at a community college followed by two years at a baccalaureate institution? I know community college makes a lot of sense for someone trying to get their gen ed requirements out of the way, or who needs remedial classes to prepare for college level work, but I’m not convinced it’s always an automatic that the second institution accepts all the transfer credits and the students, more often than not, are able to enter the second institution with junior status, especially those taking more rigorous technical degrees.
I can see where it may make more sense to take on a reasonable amount of debt (the Stafford equivalents) to get a four-year STEM or similar degree done so you can go straight to a well-paying job. It’s hard to know how it’s all going to pan out when you’re 17 or 18 though. The best laid plans are often waylaid.
Sorry, JHS & Hunt, for the mis-attribution.
But I still believe that any calculus of “reasonable” college has to include community college. Sure, it is incumbent upon states to make their college systems integrate, at least wrt to highlighting transferable courses etc. California has been working on this for the past decade, albeit painfully, since academics like to protect their fiefdoms and the old, government-designed computer systems, require a LOT of IT help to get them to talk to each other.
That being said, it make little $$ sense to me to send kids to a four-year college where they will take a bunch of remedial courses. In California, again as a example, over half of the students matriculating to the Cal State system require remediation. At some campuses, its over 90%. Essentially, we are paying professors salaries to teach high school level courses. Makes no sense, at least to me, since that is extremely inefficient.
But we can make community colleges work, more efficiently, and at much less cost than the 4-year. For example,
Post #63 hit me that perhaps the view of debt for college should be from the payment perspective. Not really the best choice financially, but maybe a more reasonable to look at it. Car dealers are masters of this. Can’t afford a $25,000 car? How about a monthly payment of $XX for $XX months? Works out the same to the consumer. For the majors with clear employment paths such as engineering, accounting, education, it can just be part of the budgeting process.
How common is it for state universities to require students to live in the dorms without exception for those within reasonable commuting distance?
Yes, debt is a choice. And that applies to all SES. The real question is: is it a wise choice, well-considered? Or some knee-jerk “everyone needs an education” thinking, along with the magical idea that, “I will come out with a fab job to pay that debt?” And that answer depends on circumstances. And on the individual.
When we usually speak of crushing college debt, we don’t really mean “our” debt. We mean the kids who dropped out, or who never really developed the oomph and drive to pursue a competitive career at a competitive salary. There are some CC parents who’ve spoken of the years it took them to pay back their own loans, but really mostly we mean kids for whom the debt has no parallel advantages.
And we do often advise people on financial threads based on what the monthly payback costs are. How does a kid with minimal prospects pay $300/month? You know, 27k debt from some crappy college is the same payment as 27k from a top school that polished him.
If you do it purely on economics, some 4 yr degrees would be hard to justify. Some licensed/certified tech/Allied Health degrees from 2 yr programs are higher paying than some 4 yr degrees and the cost of earning the license/certification is a fraction of the cost.
Mom- I agree completely but it’s so hard to know in advance.
A kid with a four year degree from a third tier university in sports management- he’s in debt, he’s working at an LA Fitness for minimum wage plus commissions (a job for which no degree is required btw)- I think adult minds would look and say “that was a bad deal”. But that same kid, same third tier university, degree in political science- first job at minimum wage working as a legislative aid in his state capitol-- he could be on a fast-track within two years (these jobs promote quickly if you are hard-working and savvy) and be working as a campaign consultant or lobbyist when it’s time to cash in once (and if) he burns out on public service.
Not everyone is suited to be a radiology tech.
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How common is it for state universities to require students to live in the dorms without exception for those within reasonable commuting distance?
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I think that the issue is how a school defines “reasonable commuting distance”. I certainly don’t know what other public schools have for policy. I am not even personally currently looking at the school in my example. A private school my D is looking at requires on campus housing for 3 years! At that school, you have to maintain permanent residence with your parents within 40 miles of campus to be considered a commuter and get a housing waiver.