Not anymore! See here:
http://bursar.temple.edu/sites/bursar.temple.edu/files/documents/Tuition%20_Rates.pdf?year=2015-2016
Kids from lower income families are often those who are unable to obtain sufficient, steady part-time unskilled employment in order to pay for their living expenses. Kids who come from high schools where the emphasis has been on babysitting, getting the free lunch, staying out of trouble, but no real emphasis on studying. Kids who come from teen moms without a dad, they are taught how to work the system, but not what real work means.
Plenty of families live paycheck to paycheck, and struggle to make ends meet on a daily basis. For these families, saving for college is never a realistic option. Education has never been a priority.
Loans become the option, and can be a pathway out. But life happens, sometimes their one parent loses a job or has hours cut, or an illness means they can’t work for a period of time. Suddenly they’ve skipped a semester or two - but they are still on the hook for those loans. They revert to what they know - some will say milking the system, while the debt grows.
What are the job options for these kids if and when they eventually graduate at 26 or 27? They are not nearly as likely to earn a great salary with solid benefits as the kid who graduated in 4 years from a “better” school. So they will be saddled with more debt than they can afford, and will end up paying for it longer.
I am specifically trying to avoid the implication that far too many of these people will sometimes come off as entitled. Instead, I am trying to describe my position that “crippling” debt is really a sliding scale.
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“Not anymore! See here:”
Come on Lucie. You can do better than that.
Sure $15k is the sticker price for a commuter. But we know that most people (like 80%) at Temple don’t pay the sticker price.
There are plenty of places in NY state that are not commutable to a SUNY, and for a kid with average stats several are not realistic options for admission, most are not realistic options for significant financial aid.
Generally, nursing programs are limited to the Cal States…
Sorry, JHS, but IMO you definition is too limiting. There is nothing wrong, i.e., un-reasonable, with attending a community college for two years and transferring.
(a) @bluebayou , that’s @Hunt 's definition, not mine. But I agree with it.
(b) Most of the students in the country do not have great options for attending a community college and then transferring. The coordination between community colleges and four-year institutions is very imperfect. Nationally, only a very small percentage of students who enter community college intending to get a bachelor’s degree eventually complete their bachelor’s degree. Overall, only about 13% of people who obtain AAs complete their bachelor’s degree. Students who start in a four-year college have a much higher success rate.
In my prior firm, we had a young secretary who was very smart, well-organized, diligent. She had been a student at the same academic magnet high school my kids went to, and graduated in the top 25% of the class. She was clearly capable of doing college work. She went to community college to avoid going into debt, and to allow her to work part time to save money for college. Her plan was to transfer and get a nursing degree. In fact, she did eventually complete her AA – although it took her five years – and she did enroll in a BSN program, but she never completed it. Her boyfriend/fiance/husband finished his degree, and wasn’t terribly supportive of her devoting more time to college. They had a kid, and used a lot of her college savings on that. She worked full time or close to it most of the time, at least until her daughter was born.
She made her own choices, but there’s no question in my mind that if she had gone to a four-year college full time, she would have graduated in four years with a BSN. Economically, maybe she’s ahead – she is a very good legal secretary, and she never borrowed for college – or at least not far behind. In terms of overall satisfaction and sense of self-worth, and contribution to the worlld, it was a real loss.
^^^I’m assuming you have some inside information about how she views her self worth?
Your example aside, I’m not sure there is a strong relationship between graduation rate and two versus four year colleges. I suspect the graduation rates more strongly reflect the work ethics and motivations of the students themselves. Back to your example, it seems the husband’s lack of motivation was the reason she never completed her degree. That might have happened at a four year school too. Only then she would just be a college dropout without even an associates degree.
When my daughter was in a PA state school we grossed about 50K and payed self employment taxes thanks to the separation of church and state. No way in hades we could fork over the cost of her education. 35k net less mortgage and utilities and high out of pocket medical expenses meant student loans. Closest state school is an hour drive and is not a commuter school so no carpooling. Would’ve meant a third car so spouse and I could work out high mileage jobs (pastors often drive to many homes and hospitals in the course of a day so we spend lots on gas).
Not easy to save college funds at that income. Car repair bills and such add up. Can’t buy new often so cars age. Much easier to save money when you have a higher income. Low middle class can’t buy in bulk and the like. Often don’t have disposable income to take advantage of sales.
Easy for people with high incomes to tell the rest of us we don’t need loans or that our children should choose careers based on what degrees are available locally. What is this, Donton abbey where we should know our station and remain in it?
KKmama, if you drew the downton abby conclusion from me, i will apologize. But I do want you to understand that your daughters situation is probably exactly what Mrs. Decidesomehow experienced. It was not easy, but she got through it with minimal (a couple thousand) debt. So all I am trying to point out is that it is possible. It’s not comfortable, or easy, or fun, or any other adjective you want to pick. But it is possible. We have seen several students go to college by simply telling them that it is possible. It is daunting. But do not give up. Once you come out the other side and graduation, it will be worth it.
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Or kids with a non-fungible list of academic requirements- the major MUST be neuroscience, not a chem major who takes a lot of psych and bio classes; the major MUST be International Relations, not an econ major with a heavy dose of political theory. In my neck of the woods, I find that these kinds of kids are talking themselves into a boatload of debt
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@blossom is right. And add a few more majors that some kids won’t budge on but aren’t staples on most campuses (but other majors could work very well) Sports Management, BioMedEngineering, and Linguistics. Even more painful is that so many kids change their majors.
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Or kids with a non-fungible list of academic requirements- the major MUST be neuroscience, not a chem major who takes a lot of psych and bio classes; the major MUST be International Relations, not an econ major with a heavy dose of political theory. In my neck of the woods, I find that these kinds of kids are talking themselves into a boatload of debt
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@blossom is right. And add a few more majors that some kids won’t budge on but aren’t staples on most campuses (but other majors could work very well) Sports Management, BioMedEngineering, and Linguistics. Even more painful is that so many kids change their majors.
In order to accept the premise, a lot of assumptions would have to be made that individually may be disagreeable to those on the other side of the discussion. What is reasonable debt? $20,000 per yr? $10,000 per yr? Only the student federal limit? What is the economic position of the person making that call? What about students who truly have a calling and a talent and there isn’t a good option locally? What if there isn’t even a good one within their state? Is it really that difficult to believe that finding affordable realistic options isn’t really that easy?
Up to now, we have made it work, but no, it has not been simple. It has taken them effort to find schools to meet their academic needs while being financially realistic. Our current college freshman graduated from high school having completed 5 in major physic core classes requirements. The local university does not have any graduate level physics courses. His UG course offerings would have been severely limited at the local university. (It only offers a very narrow track of courses.) His 11th grade sister is facing the same issue, except hers is in French and Russian. When you graduate from high school at a 300+ level performance and the local school only offers 2-3 classes per level and that is your desired major, it really limits your ability to meet academic needs. You enter at at point where maybe 4-8 classes are even possible in your major.
When you start discussing debt, how outsiders determine what is acceptable debt may not match another family’s definition. I am guessing that most people in this thread would most definitely would not agree with our definition. Our EFC is no where close to being a realistic option for our family. Our children know that we will not take out any loans for their college educations. So the answer to the original question posed is $0 of debt for the parents. Harsh? It is more like simple reality. Even at $10,000 per yr for 4 yrs, if we agreed to that level of debt for our children, that would be a minimum (no interest included) of $320,000 in UG loans for our children. That level of debt would destroy any and all financial stability for our future. We let them know upfront what we can afford to pay without loans and that is the budget from us that they have. (And no, we won’t cosign for loans, either.) And that amt is only about 1/3 of our EFC.
Our kids have no choice but to follow merit money or make do. Our dd is already researching all possible options. Our kids are extremely strong academically oriented students and so far our older kids have managed to find colleges that met both their academic and financial parameters. Our 11th grader is having a much more difficult time bc Russian and IR/IS majors are harder to find within our financial limits and yet still offer enough courses for her needs. She has found a couple she is planning on visiting soon, but no, she wouldn’t suggest finding affordable options with her major is easy.
I’m sure others find our restrictions unreasonable or believe that the fault is ours for having so many children. But, I equally know our children have very blessed lives in a stable home with 2 loving parents who have equipped them well to succeed and have given them every academic advantage prior to attending college. They are also willing to make their own way based on the options they do have rather than lament about the options they don’t. Dd is already making a list of how she can make the local option work if none of her other choices are affordable.
So on the one hand it meets the definition of not creating unreasonable debt. But on the other, it is like suggesting that the CC is a decent option for a student who wants to major in math and has already completed cal1-3, diffEQ, and linear alg. What math classes would they take at the CC?
Reality is never as simple as a simple premise.
However, a generation ago, college cost less, and jobs that high school graduates could find paid enough to support oneself with a little left over to pay the then-trivial tuition and books at any in-state public university without parental support (including living at home with parents). While not an unlimited choice of colleges, it was likely a greater selection of colleges than what students in a similar situation see now (limited to big scholarship schools, if any, and possibly state universities near the parents’ house if they will let the student continue to live there at no charge).
Not sure what you mean in terms of a true substitute for a linguistics major. Computer game design may be a better example of a very specific uncommon major that is easily substituted by a more common major (computer science).
It can be the case in some places, fairly mainstream majors are not widely available. E.g. engineering majors at the PASSHE schools in Pennsylvania. Or even mainstream liberal arts majors may not have very good programs. E.g. suppose the nearby affordable school’s English and math departments are mostly teaching service courses and remedial courses for non-majors; a student intending to major in English or math may find the school poorly suited for him/her.
I had this discusdion with D2. If all of a sudden H&I died, go to the local college ( 4yr state) , live at home and get a job. The AP credit alone would be 2 yrs credit. Military GI bill is also an option.
To answer the title question, another category would be where the student and/or parents have very limiting non-academic criteria that they will not compromise on. E.g. within a certain small distance to home, must have high prestige/ranking, must be urban/rural, must be affiliated with some specific religion, must have some demographic feature (percentage of race, ethnicity, religion, etc.), must be a specific school, etc…
@northwesty, we may know something like 80% of students get a break on tuition (although I’d love to see some documentation if you have it), but how do we know how much of a discount they’re receiving?
And the list price STARTS at $15,000. Many other majors (business, engineering, art & architecture) cost several thousand dollars more a year.
Temple has gotten much more competitive to be admitted to, so aside from the big merit awards which only a small percentage receive, I can’t imagine most students are receiving big grants to offset the cost. But if I’m mistaken, please show me where you’re finding that information. Believe me, I’d love to be wrong about this, but I’ve never heard that Temple is an inexpensive option for someone trying to avoid debt.
One can go to CC, get the job and obtain a 4 year degree and even Grad. degree on employer’s dime. I know so many examples of this, including my H. and me and many of co-workers at 9 different places that I have worked. I know examples of nurses who are taking the on-line classes. All people that I know worked full time and greatly enjoyed working in their fields, engineering, IT, nursing. I have an MBA and so does my H.
I wished I lived in your parallel universe, @MiamiDAP, where employers in 2015 are paying for graduate degrees for all their employees! CS, engineering? MAYBE. But everybody else? Hahahahaha.