Who is Harvard's biggest competitor?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
101

<p>
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Which is the one the gets reported as the school that someone attended, the undergraduate school or their law/graduate school? It is always the one with the highest name recognition or perhaps public reputation. Is it right, perhaps not, but I would not let it impact your idealism or your ability to look behing the facade for what may truly matter.

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<p>I have to agree with Eagle79 on this one. I recall how when the Unabomber was found to be Ted Kaczynski, was media went bonkers about how this "Harvard-trained mathematician" could have lost his mind. Only if you dug deeply into the story would you have found out that while he went to undergrad at Harvard, he actually got his math doctorate at Michigan. I would argue that if you're a mathematician, your graduate school is far more important to your training than is your undergrad school, so it's really more accurate to call the Unabomber the "Michigan-trained mathematician". But that doesn't exactly have the same ring to it. </p>

<p>Same thing is true of infamous Iraqi politician Ahmed Chalabi, who the media invariably calls "...The Iraqi exile, MIT-trained mathematician, and wealthy businessman...", yet invariably seems to always omit that his math doctorate is not from MIT, it's from Chicago. </p>

<p><a href="http://slate.msn.com/id/2096813%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://slate.msn.com/id/2096813&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

102

<p>you better hope nobody reports the new Harvard-Princeton cross admit numbrer, scottie!</p>

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<p>most of HP or HY cross admits who choose harvard do so for the prestige.</p>

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<p>So you are saying that if they are interested in "prestige" they would generally shun Princeton and Yale by wide margins?</p>

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<p>Harvard is more prestigious than Yale or Princeton. It's the most reknowned university in the world. Fact.
I'm not saying this to offend Princetonians and Yalies. And I don't claim that this "prestige" has an impact on the quality of education.
But you cant deny that people who dont know anything about universities would rate Harvard ahead of Princeton and Yale. Outside of the US, the average Joe has hardly heard of Yale or Princeton, yet he wets his pants at the mention of Harvard. My grandparents were shocked when I told them that I chose Princeton over Harvard.
Regardless of quality of education (which ought to be the only factor for choosing a college), Harvard has more "glimmer". As a consequence, many students who are accepted at Harvard and another great institution and are unable to make up their mind often opt for Harvard because they believe (wrongfully) that Harvard's name will help them get a better career and will add to their own personal prestige.
I know what I'm talking about: I very nearly chose Harvard over Princeton because of these reasons.</p>

106

<p>More people buy Celine Dion CDs than Beethoven CDs, so we are to conclude from this what . . . . ?</p>

<p>Just cause the mob does something (unthinking mob mentality reigns at Harvard, believe me, too threatening to burst that bubble), you're supposed to follow?</p>

<p>If you look at satisfaction surveys, Harvard students aren't very happy with their experience. I think Princeton is probably the highest in the Ivy League but I haven't seen any statistics for a while. </p>

<p>Stanford is just too insular for words. The nearest private school of any import is Washington in St. Louis, some 1500 miles away. And the student body is far less diverse (loads of Californians).</p>

107

<p>"Insular...?" What exactly do you mean?</p>

<p>As for "private school[s] of any import" being "near," I think Caltech, Pomona, and USC all have some level of "import," don't you?</p>

<p>Yale and Harvard heavily favor the Northeast...does that make them more diverse?</p>

108

<p>byerly continually refuses to use the latest H-Y cross-admit numbers because they are less favorable to harvard than his beloved 84.3%. he would - and has - jumped all over other posters for similar practices, so it's time he own up on this, if only in the name of consistency.</p>

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<p>Harvard's cross admit edge over its combined "rivals" is just as high as its ever been, evidenced in part by the fact that this year's overall yield rate was nearly 80%.</p>

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<p>this isn't about its combined rivals, though; it's about yale.</p>

111

<p>greatlakes- you missed my point completely
Im not comparing Harvard to Celine Dion nor am I comparing Pton to Beethoven. Both are great schools
All that Im saying is that most people who have to choose between H and Por Y follow the opinion of the "ignorant mob" EVEN THOUGH the "mob" knows nothing about colleges. The high cross admit rate in favor of Harvard can be explained by this IRRELEVANT factor. Despite it being a non valid argument it still bears an important influence. Most people have this inner need for recognition and want people to think that they've been to the "best"school (Im not saying thatt H is better than P or Y, just that most ppl think it is because Harvard is the oldest university in the USA)
If Princeton and Yale had the same "glimmer" for the "mob" then Im sure
the rates would be much closer to 50/50
Hope Ive made myself clear</p>

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<p>That was a great reply. Thanks. Yes, people unfortunately too rarely do the work necessary to look beyond the facades. One of the smartest students I ever encountered was at a community college, and some of the most brilliant or creative people I've met go to tiny schools cause their very brilliance makes them less able to 'play by the rules' of standard, larger educational institutions. I think Augusten Burroughs the writer is an example which comes to mind.</p>

<p>I mean, what college did Virginia Woolf go to, or Van Gogh, or Arvo Part? You get my gist.</p>

<p>And by private schools of any import, I meant to say internationally prominent research universities. (This whole discussion is biased toward the American and English-speaking set). There are only a few in that broad, top category in comparison to the thousands of colleges out there.</p>

<p>What I meant was regarding Stanford is that it sits in this narcissistic cess-pool of self-love, self-congratulation. Most young Californians have never been out of the state or out of the country, except maybe to gamble in Nevada, and the school is brimming with California 'legacies'. The students there get good grades, but have never struck me as very capable or well-rounded. Sitting in a huge field in one of the richest, upper incomes cities in the country doesn't help them confront reality or conflicting ideas very well, either. It, like Berkeley, is a great Engineering School, but not a great school in terms of a broad education. Stanford in character is NOT the Harvard of the West, it's the Princeton of the West (same upper-class insulation on a vast tract of land in the midst of an upper-income homogenous town). The schools in the East have major competitors every 90 or 100 miles (Columbia, Princeton, Yale, Penn, Harvard, Swarthmore, Amherst, etc.) so this kind of unchecked self-love and ignorant arrogance is challenged by the calibre of the neighboring schools and by confronting things like urban poverty and even brutal winter weather.</p>

<p>In the end, education boils down to one student, and one professor. When they are both giving their best, one can get a good education anywhere.</p>

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<p>People have briefly mentioned the international aspect . . . Does Harvard face any serious international competition (e.g. quality of programs, cross admits)?</p>

114

<p>Have you even been reading this discussion? </p>

<p>Columbia, USC top Harvard in Cinema. </p>

<p>Berkeley in most Engineering fields. </p>

<p>Yale in the most Humanities (English, French, History, Classics, etc.), the Arts, Law, etc. </p>

<p>MIT & CalTech and Stanford in other Engineering/Biological fields. </p>

<p>Business, Penn, Berkeley.</p>

<p>Less studied languages, probably Cornell and Institute of African and Oriental Studies. </p>

<p>Art History, Berkeley, Yale, Columbia, NY schools.</p>

<p>Princeton, Physics.</p>

<p>Music, Yale, Juliard, Peabody, Indiana.</p>

<p>Indian Studies, Chicago, Penn, Berkeley.</p>

<p>On and on. </p>

<p>You need to look CAREFULLY at particular fields and interests (along with other factors like student satisfaction, study abroad, teacher ratios, locale). I believe some graduate council ranks grad programs every 10 years or so, and the last ranking is rather old right now. There is, of course, the US News grad report (which gives clues as to the strength of particular undergrad programs).</p>

<p>The rankings are somewhat pathetic, though, since they rely on perceived prestige, which simply maintains the simplistic mob mentality we see here. Less brainwashed factors (like faculty citations or student satisfaction) should be considered more reliable.</p>

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<p>Internationally, you might check out these well known and highly respected rankings:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.epfl.ch/soc/etudes/pdf/world-rankingsUnis.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.epfl.ch/soc/etudes/pdf/world-rankingsUnis.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The previous poster, "Great Lakes", seems to be a new alias making (his?) debut on this thread for the purpose of Harvard bashing. </p>

<p>One would assume it is a poster previously banned who has returned with a new IP address.</p>

116

<p>Byerly,</p>

<p>Intesting lists. A few comments:</p>

<p>Each of the world lists have a different perspective on education within the US that we do, i.e. USNews. For example, the Times higher education list ranks Boston University at #75 in the world yet US News only ranks BU at 60 among National Research Universities. Additionally, the University of Chicago is ranked higher world-wide in both of the surveys than in US News, Times 13, Institute of Higher Education 10, US News National Research Universities, 15.</p>

<p>Not sure what this really says but it is interesting.</p>

117

<p>"What I meant was regarding Stanford is that it sits in this narcissistic cess-pool of self-love, self-congratulation. Most young Californians have never been out of the state or out of the country, except maybe to gamble in Nevada, and the school is brimming with California 'legacies'. The students there get good grades, but have never struck me as very capable or well-rounded. Sitting in a huge field in one of the richest, upper incomes cities in the country doesn't help them confront reality or conflicting ideas very well, either. It, like Berkeley, is a great Engineering School, but not a great school in terms of a broad education. Stanford in character is NOT the Harvard of the West, it's the Princeton of the West (same upper-class insulation on a vast tract of land in the midst of an upper-income homogenous town). The schools in the East have major competitors every 90 or 100 miles (Columbia, Princeton, Yale, Penn, Harvard, Swarthmore, Amherst, etc.) so this kind of unchecked self-love and ignorant arrogance is challenged by the calibre of the neighboring schools and by confronting things like urban poverty and even brutal winter weather."</p>

<p>Okay, so let's take that apart in search of the truth.</p>

<p>First of all, Stanford tends to take students from the area. Harvard takes 17% from Massachusetts, a much smaller state. Is Harvard filled with "Massachusetts legacies?" Or is it merely filled with legacies in general?</p>

<p>"Students there get good grades, but have never struck me as very capable or well-rounded." Unless you provide citations or supporting data for that, then let's just defenestrate that comment. "Capable" and "well-rounded" are hard to measure, if not impossible. Not only that, but Stanford students, from my experience, tend to be more active and have better EC's than at schools like Harvard and MIT. </p>

<p>"Sitting in a huge field in one of the richest, upper incomes cities in the country doesn't help them confront reality or conflicting ideas very well, either." That also describes Harvard/MIT's Cambridge and the eponymous Princeton. </p>

<p>"It, like Berkeley, is a great Engineering School, but not a great school in terms of a broad education." Well then how come Stanford ranks in the top 5, graduate school-wise, for almost every disciple? How come we top the psychology rankings, are top-5 in English, political science, economics, physics, math, chemistry, history, and so on? How come our law and business schools are consensus top-3 graduate programs? Where, exactly, does Stanford not offer a "broad education?" </p>

<p>"it's the Princeton of the West (same upper-class insulation on a vast tract of land in the midst of an upper-income homogenous town). The schools in the East have major competitors every 90 or 100 miles...so this kind of unchecked self-love and ignorant arrogance is challenged by the calibre of the neighboring schools and by confronting things like urban poverty and even brutal winter weather."
After visiting most of the schools you mention, I'll have to say that all of them were far more pretentious than Stanford. It's old money verus new money. Harvard and Princeton, especially the former, have "unchecked self-love" far more than Stanford ever will. And not having "brutal winter weather" is a good thing! That's why the American Dream has been replaced by the Californian Dream and that our state is the most desirable to live in! Don't be bitter that our shorts-wearing lifestyle remains more popular than wearing heavy jackets. Stanford's academic excellence, although perhaps more recent than the gilded, elitist pasts of Harvard and Princeton, certainly justifies self-confidence.</p>

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<p>The supposed rankings of 'world' universities are again heavily weighted toward science/engineering, look at the methodology. Hardly a good system if you want to be a lawyer or author or historian.</p>

119

<p>How pathetic again. One states facts, like the Anthro programs at Arizona, Berkeley, or Cornell top Harvard, and one is accused of "Harvard-bashing." </p>

<p>I'm simply stating facts (common perceptions/rankings of the quality of programs in Art History, English, Law, Arts, Cinema, Geology, Physics, Ecology, Asian Languages, etc.) which trump these stereotypes about the supposed wonders of Harvard.</p>

<p>And regarding Harvard's Mass. admits, the writer is correct, there is basically an affirmative action program there for state locals, everyone knows that.</p>

<p>Harvard at least is in an urban area, so issues like poverty and racism are confronted when students go out the door. This doesn't happen at la-la land Stanford. Stanfordites may play blaze, but after graduation they are forever in narcissistic-ville, admiring their own mirages.</p>

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<p>To answer the OP's question:
(which is "Who is Harvard's greatest competitors?" just in case any of you boys and girls had forgotten ;))</p>

<p>undergrad: princeton </p>

<p>grad/professional: yale, stanford</p>

<p>engineering: MIT (stanford after that)</p>

<p>physics: princeton, stanford</p>

<p>fine arts, law: yale</p>

<p>public policy: princeton</p>

<p>economics: princeton, MIT, yale</p>

<p>business: penn</p>

<p>politics: yale</p>

<p>1) this doesn't mean that the schools I mentioned are better than Harvard in the given field, they may or may not be.
2) my opinion only, dont flame plz</p>