<p>Xiggi, I don’t disagree with you. The school system is flawed no doubt but we can’t ignore how differently our children are being raised and pretend it has nothing to do with how they are doing in school. We can’t look at how differently other countries children are being raised and pretend it has no bearing on their success. </p>
<p>Our district has an immersion school where most of the teachers are immigrants or 1st generation in this country. Almost all’s first language was either Mandarin or Spanish. The first couple years, they were stunned by the behavioral and attitude issues with the kids. These were middle, upper-middle class kids. They came from very passionate parents who fought to bring this program to the district but also bought into modern psychology that self-esteem is everything and so we can’t tell a kid that they are making a bad choice. In many respects, the teacher’s hands are tied. Any method of trying to get the class under control is quickly crushed under some parent who decides that having to stay in from recess one day and write an apology for stealing a classmates item is an unfair penalty (yep, that happened.) Several kids were bullies and yet the push wasn’t to change THEIR behavior but for the victims to “understand,” “show compassion for” and “forgive” their tormentors. The parents of these bullies? They fought tooth and nail against any penalty for their children and they won because in the end, what could the school do legally?</p>
<p>I taught state preschool for low-income families for several years. The immigrant kids and their families valued education. They expected a very high level of respect towards teachers from their children. We rarely ever had behavioral issues with them and despite starting the year with no English skills, typically, they were the most advanced students in the room by June (and in preschool, that language gap closes faster than in the older grades.) I’d see the parents trudging their kids a mile in the pouring rain to get to school while the non-immigrant families with cars called in that it was too rainy to go out. We were often treated us like babysitters by the long-time citizens. If we shared a concern, it was simply us not doing our job. They rarely accepted that their kid was doing wrong or that we needed some support at home to alter troubling behaviors. They just couldn’t understand it. THEY don’t have problems with the kids at home because they don’t use the “no” word. The kids come to school and actually are expected to follow directions or do something they might no want to do at that very second and suddenly the teacher is getting bitten… and it’s all the teacher’s fault. </p>
<p>Geesh, my eldest pretty much educated herself in 3rd grade and I was angry until I started working in the class. How could this teacher possibly do her job when so much of her day was just spent trying to manage two kids who were just out of control, couldn’t be removed from the school and had parents who fought every penalty or bad grade their child DESERVED. How did it get better? I started coming in almost everyday and managed those kids so the teacher could actually do what she was hired to do.</p>
<p>It’s all messed up. Certainly, we need to fight for a better education system but it’s not enough to change the schools if we are going to continue sending in kids who aren’t expected to behave and learn. Success often comes from hardship and we are a culture that does our best to shield our kids from every hardship.</p>
<p>I wholeheartedly agree that the system we have is abysmal for succeeding on whatever testing criteria the examiners use to rank nations. I am asking a much bigger question. Do these high achievements result in a more successful society? Do the rest of the world rush to Singapore and Finland for higher education or employment? Do we look to these high achieving countries for innovations? IMHO the answer is a resounding"NO". Therefore, I wonder why we see this paradox. Are the criteria we are using to rank these countries completely wrong? Because it seems to me, anecdotally, that the US paradoxically surpasses these other countries when it comes to higher education, innovations, patents, and productivity.</p>
<p>I agree with so much posted here, failure on the part of parents, kids, attitudes, the system, but whats a parent to do? I pay taxes, I vote, and Im vocal in our local school community but, for all of the reasons discussed above, by eighth grade we decided to bail and send our kid across the country to a boarding school known for great teachers, great academics, and almost unlimited resources. The problem here, of course, is that not everyone has the ability to do this and were adding to yet another problemthe growing elitism of American education, you can get it if you can pay for it. That doesnt sit well with me, but I have to look out for my own kid as I know we arent going to fix this mess in time for him to benefit. So, I watch sadly as we become not only a country of increasing income disparity but education disparity as well.</p>
<p>“Interesting though, that American seniors (age 55-65) rank the highest in the world in their age group, for problem-solving proficiency.”</p>
<p>The rest of the world has a lot to do with this. Many countries that are currently leaders in education (especially Japan and S. Korea, but to some extent Scandinavia) achieved that excellence too recently for its effects to show in this age group. There was a lot less global competition at the time older baby boomers were educated. If you compare the education of 20-somethings, you see the effects of current policies.</p>
<p>I think there are lots of reasons. However, before I discuss these reasons for the lower scores in the U.S., I want to mention that I don’t know which kids were tested in the U.S and in foreign countries nor what criteria were used to select the tested candidates nor what benefits were offered to those who did well. There might have been some “gaming of the system.”</p>
<p>As for the lower scores, here are the reasons that I can see.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Many teachers that I know complain that the parents want their kids to get good grades at all costs. Sadly, the principals don’t necessarily back up the teachers ,which is absolutely wrong. We need to get back to tougher grading standards and tougher curriculum. We also need administrators with backbone who will back up the teachers to a much greater extent that currently occurring.</p></li>
<li><p>The curriculum, especially in the humanities, has been watered down. For example, we live in a county praised for their primary education.However, there is no course given in grammar and punctuation after 6th grade! When I was in school, this was part of the curriculum each year! I even wrote an Op Ed piece on this.</p></li>
<li><p>We are watering down our education considerably in order to get everyone to pass, which is a mistake. As one principal noted, " We need to make room for the new incoming group of students. “</p></li>
<li><p>Due to high school rankings, most schools try to put as many people as possible into AP and honor courses regardless of whether the student is qualified for these programs. To me, placing students in programs suitable for their abilities would result in a better education than putting them in programs that are over their head.</p></li>
<li><p>We need more skills taught in a interdisciplinary way. For example, social studies should require better writing and grammar and not ignore the way the paper is written, which seems to be a very pervasive problem. I get kids and even teachers saying that grammar isn’t tested or part of the grading in social studies.” Frankly, I think social studies teachers and english teachers need to get together on reading comprehension and grammar and maybe even meet with each other and discuss students who are lacking decent writing skills and present approaches to help remedy their deficiencies. Science and math teachers can do the same thing. I see no reason that science can’t use the current math in problem solving. Maybe I am being a bit of an idealist here.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>In the US, we channel almost everyone into academic secondary education regardless of talent, ability, or preparation. This practice affects our scores on the international assessments.</p>
<p>The two-tier European system yields better test scores. It also tracks children at an earlier age in a way that would be unacceptable to many American parents. This is a situation where what looks good for the group might be bad for the individual. We want our children to have second, third, and fourth chances. There is a cost to to be paid, though.</p>
<p>@frugaldoctor asked: “I am asking a much bigger question. Do these high achievements result in a more successful society? Do the rest of the world rush to Singapore and Finland for higher education or employment?”</p>
<p>Two observations about these questions:
This question is best asked in 20 years from now when the society will see more of the benefits of more highly educated high schoolers (of today).
No, there is a lot less rushing to those societies since they do not treat illegal immigrants or even legal immigrants the way the US does.</p>
<p>Some Americans significantly out perform the average. Others don’t. The U.S.A. educates an enormous percentage of the population and we have students of many different cultural backgrounds and traditions. Some value investing time in school work, but not all.</p>
<p>The 55-65 age group was born around 1948-1958, so they would have graduated high school in 1966-1976. Could the “space race” that was going on at the time they were in school have been a factor in increasing interest in academic work by students, parents, and teachers at the time?</p>
<p>Another factor could be the rise in working moms and single parenthood. My kids got participation trophies, honor roll was dismantled out of concern for the kids who didn’t get on honor roll (no fear sports awards still carried on) testing out the wazoo and teaching to the test. I also had the head of their previous school try and tell me that it was more important that kids felt good about their effort than actually get it correct - and I hear that’s really sweeping the nation.</p>
<p>Of the younger ones I hire I sometimes refer to some of them as the ones whose parents never stopped clapping when they used the potty. They expect kudos and applause for doing the bare minimum.</p>
<p>Anyone see the WSJ article last week, “Why Tough Teachers Get Good Results”?
(Perhaps someone can post a link–I tried, but don’t know how.)</p>
<p>Bring back drill and rote memorization!
I teach Algebra, English, and SAT prep. The biggest problem is that students think that a little bit of work is A LOT of work. They are soft, lazy, and full of excuses. And they don’t know their times tables.</p>
<p>As a member of the 55-65 demographic, I can vouch for the fact that we memorized names and dates, learned the times tables and diagramed sentences (does anybody still do that?). We did not, however, carry around devices that could immediately answer any factual question we could ask or calculate faster and more precisely than mere humans. Different worlds.</p>
<p>The older group measured would be the ones who are available, who have not dropped out of the workforce or died or become members of the underclass; otherwise, they would not be an easily measurable population. There is a certain survivor bias here. I would be interesting in knowing how they located their older sample. </p>
<p>I don’t actually believe that schools in the US used to be a lot better. My own anecdotal experience is that my own D’s public school experience was better and more rigorous than mine in the 70s (and I went to a “good” district). From my conversations with people I know and am related to, public schools were pretty rigorous in the 40s and 50s, became easier in the 70s and 80s, and started to become harder in the 90s-00s.</p>
<p>“Did the space race make a difference in the schools?”
It did where I grew up–we had the highest percentage of PHDs in the nation and our parents certainly expected good academics. Many of the teachers at the time were experts in their field with a teaching certificate.</p>
<p>Scoutsmom–I taught my kids how to diagram a sentence. I still think it’s the easiest way to pick apart a sentence. And memorization exercises the brain, I think it’s necessary for connecting all those neurons and jumping synapses.</p>
<p>Comparing Finland (5 mil) and Japan (13 mil people) to US averages is beyond meaningless. We have a much more diverse population and a lot larger subsection of our population takes these tests. Considering the US still leads in pretty much every output metric, theres no way to rationally conclude we’re ‘falling behind’ everyone else.</p>
<p>China’s the only country you can make a real arguement thats increased its competitiveness over the past 2 decades relative to the US.</p>
<p>Why do we have to use foreign countries to compare and make excuses?
Why American educators don’t just compare the current education outcome with the past outcome and the desired outcome to make things work for us?</p>
<p>I think two problems we have are:
Too many researchers and theories but no concrete and agreeable actions are taken.
Teachers don’t have the best ability. Best people don’t want to be teachers.</p>
<p>There’s 126 million people in Japan. Though you’re right in that Japan and Finland are extremely homogeneous (same with South Korea).</p>
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<p>Over the past two decades? Certainly South Korea, Vietnam (though not measured here), and Poland also fit the same bill of consistent growth. China, Vietnam, and Poland have a long way to go though, while South Korea’s per capita GDP is still about 33% lower than the US’s. Of those, probably only South Korea has any chance of matching America’s productivity in the next 50 years though. </p>
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<p>This is something I never thought about. Good insight.</p>
<p>You want kids to understand how a sentence is constructed? The way I learned that was by learning a foreign language. The fact that we don’t teach foreign languages until so late in school is shocking and nearly appalling to a lot of people I talk to here in Germany, and I think elsewhere in the world, too.</p>
<p>But with my dad being a teacher, I think another huge factor is valuing our educators. They have to put up with so much crap and put in so much work and do such an important job, yet they’re underpaid and severely undervalued. (Compare this to teaching being one of the most competetive careers in Finland that attracts the top students.) How many students on CC do you see who want to become teachers vs. so many other careers? It seems underrepresented among top students. There needs to be a societal shift in the way we view teachers, but that’s not easy. They need our respect, they need funding, they need the space to do their work. Teaching needs to become a field that attracts top students, and we need to do a good job of training them as educators, not throwing them into the pit and wondering why they burn out.</p>
<p>I agree with alot of what has been said here, including the excess of the self-esteem movement and the fact that factors like ravenous parents and over-testing play a role. But the role of teachers I think needs greater focus as well.</p>