<p>Just wondering why the physical sciences like biology and physics get BA degrees and not BS like CoE students. Not that there's any real difference, but it bugs me.</p>
<p>I don’t know why that is, but it bugs me as well. I have heard of instances where someone with a BA in a science related major could not apply for a higher ranking job, where someone with an equivalent BS degree could apply for that job.</p>
<p>Because no L&S major deserves a BS</p>
<p>BS majors are 80/+ units
BA majors are ~50 units</p>
<p>All L&S majors are ~50 units.</p>
<p>Also, BS does not actually mean Bachelor of Science. BS stands for “scientiae baccalaureus”. </p>
<p>Scientia, scientiae is Latin for knowledge. It is the root word for science, but it does not mean science</p>
<p>Because no L&S major deserves a BS.</p>
<p>Right.</p>
<p>Keep in mind this is coming from a biology major.</p>
<p>The main science majors in L&S are
EPS
IB
MCB
Physics
Astrophysics
(and Math and Stats are two other scientifically relevant majors)</p>
<p>These are all around 50-60 units</p>
<p>Now lets look at the CNR science majors</p>
<p>MB
GPB
MEB
MolTox
NutriSci</p>
<p>These all take so much more scientific coursework and so many more than L&S science majors</p>
<p>I agree that not all L&S majors deserve BS degrees, but majors like Computer Science, Math, ORMS definitely deserve BSs IMO.</p>
<p>cal students take the same coursework as students in universities that offer BS degrees yet still get a bachelor of ARTS degree? even if BS means ‘knowledge’ it’s still the principle of it since BS is getting known to be a science degree.</p>
<p>Yay first link on google: [Bachelor</a> Degree - BA Vs. BS](<a href=“http://ezinearticles.com/?Bachelor-Degree---BA-Vs.--BS&id=272581]Bachelor”>http://ezinearticles.com/?Bachelor-Degree---BA-Vs.--BS&id=272581)</p>
<p>I totally agree with the linked article. If you want the easy way out, go L&S.</p>
<p>Could someone explain the 50 units vs 80 units thing for me? According to what I read, that seems to be a very wishy-washy explanation.</p>
<p>Let us compare EECS(BS) vs CS(BA):</p>
<p>For EECS, students need to complete 30 units in math and science on top of 45 technical units. However, of those 45 technical engineering units, only 20 units need to be from EECS courses. In addition, students need MATH 1A, 1B, 53, and 54. This adds up to a hefty total of 91 units. On top of that, College of Engineering requires Entry Level Writing, American Institutions, American Cultures, American History, R&C 1A, R&C 1B, 4 additional humanities courses. Let’s say all that equates to around 45 units. A This would result in a 136 unit 4th year EECS student which is an overestimation considering just how many students enter CoE with AP credits fulfilling quite a few requirements.</p>
<p>Let us trim down that unit count and considering only the classes applicable towards EECS:
EECS core courses are CS61ABC, E190, EE20N, EE40, and 20 units from CS 150, 152, 160, 162, 164, 169, 184, 186 or EE 125, 128, 130, 140, 141, 143, 145L, 145M, 192. CS70 is optional, but let us consider discrete math as a core EECS class. This gives us a total of 47 units for just EECS classes.</p>
<p>In contrast, let us look at a CS student who needs the same Entry Level Writing, American Institutions, American Cultures, American History, R&C 1A, R&C 1B courses in addition to 7 breadth courses. Most of these breadth courses are 4 units (I couldn’t take a single breadth under 4 units). This starts us off at just under 70 units. Let’s say 65 units for the sake of approximation. On top of that, to complete a CS degree, we need MATH 1A, 1B, 54, CS61ABC, CS70, EE42+43, CS170, CS162, 2 courses between CS 150, 152, CS 160, 161,164, 169, 184, 186, 188, 2 additional upper div CS courses (which are usually from the same list), 1 technical upper div course (which is generally an EE or CS course), and 6 upper division units outside of the CS major. This, in total, gives rise to a CS fourth year student with 131 units. </p>
<p>Once again, let us consider only the courses that apply to CS:
For consistency, we will include discrete math as part of the CS curriculum (mostly because CS70 is required for CS majors whereas it is not required for EECS majors). This gives us CS61ABC, CS70, EE42+43, CS170, CS162, 2 CS breadth courses, 2 CS upper division courses, 1 upper div CS course which totals to 48 units with pinpoint focus on CS.</p>
<p>A full-fledged 4th year EECS students has 136 units whereas the same caliber of student accumulates 131 units. CoE forces more science-oriented units onto the student, but the L&S student can opt to take heavily science-oriented classes as well within the freedom granted by L&S. An EECS student takes 47 units in the EE and CS fields whereas a CS student takes 48 units in the CS field (with, I daresay, more focus).</p>
<p>So why, exactly, are CS majors presented with a BA degree when EECS students are presented with a BS degree if the differentiation is dependent on unit count? Where does the differentiation occur?</p>
<p>Sources:
<a href=“http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Programs/Notes/Content/Chapter2.pdf[/url]”>http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Programs/Notes/Content/Chapter2.pdf</a>
<a href=“http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/current-undergraduates/tele-bears-enrollment-degree-audit-reports-degree-worksheets/degree-worksheets/degree-worksheets-pdf/EECS%20worksheet%20w%20responsibility%203.09.pdf[/url]”>http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/current-undergraduates/tele-bears-enrollment-degree-audit-reports-degree-worksheets/degree-worksheets/degree-worksheets-pdf/EECS%20worksheet%20w%20responsibility%203.09.pdf</a>
<a href=“http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/csugrad/[/url]”>http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/csugrad/</a></p>
<p>Edit: Oops, this is longer and more rant-like than I intended. My bad :(</p>
<p>CS and ORMS are in a similar boat as L&S Chem to CoC Chem.</p>
<p>CS and ORMS are minimized forms of EECS and IEOR, respectively, so these are unique cases.</p>
<p>Also, the focus on BA v. BS is more only the units for major work as opposed to overall units (which includes general ed. work)</p>
<p>fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu</p>
<p>I don’t understand what you mean by minimized, but I highly doubt you meant minimized workload since my post focused partly on the equal major work :P</p>
<p>While I agree with you that there are special cases within L&S, I’m interpreting this conversation as one discussing those special cases. I think we should append Bio, Physics and Astronomy to the special cases as well…They get boned pretty badly for a BA, particularly since the courses and coursework philosophically fall under the BS realm more so than the BA realm. </p>
<p>I think this is where prestige matters for Berkeley…If people know the name UC Berkeley and the caliber of academics it offers (read: the level of torture it puts its students through), then it doesn’t truly matter whether we earn a BA or a BS in our respective majors.</p>
<p>Instead of the 3 extra breadth classes L&S students have to take, EECS students instead take more technical classes (which is where the 50 vs 80 units comes from).</p>
<p>Consider that many students come to Berkeley with a lot of AP credit. Say this allows both students to skip out of ~5 breadth/lower-div classes. That’s 5 more technical classes the L&S and EECS students get to take.</p>
<p>You can’t use the argument saying EECS students are not as focused on CS as CS students are because the EECS student is allowed to choose his concentration. The only required EE classes an EECS student has to take is EE 20/40.</p>
<p>Also, EE20/40 >>> EE42/43.</p>
<p>Hope this clears things up!</p>
<p>The time spent taking EE 20N, E190, Math 53, Physics 7A, and Physics 7B could be better spent taking more CS classes. For a CS major, you don’t have to take these five classes. </p>
<p>Assume that the EECS and CS major start off on an even playing field. Say they both skip out on classes with AP credits. If a CS major were to take advantage of the lack of the aforementioned requirements to take more CS classes, you can consider the LS CS major to be more concentrated in CS simply because they have more room in their schedules to take more CS classes. Even if the EECS major was Option IV with concentration in CS, they don’t have the opportunity to take as many CS classes as an LS CS major due to the added requirements.</p>
<p>Oh please, EE40>>>EE42? You don’t know that. It depends so much on the professor. I taught friends in EE40 **** all throughout the summer since my professor went nuts in the semester and competed with Boser to see who could cover more material. I feel slighted by your statement, and it feels as though you’re saying L&S CS is a weaker program than EECS. I kindly disagree, and I feel that I presented some proof that L&S CS is fairly rigorous in its coverage of CS in a previous post. </p>
<p>I will agree that EE20N is pretty epic though. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I thought we were only considering units for major work, so the three tech courses are irrelevant (I’m assuming you’re talking about tech courses that lunareclipse mentioned). Can we agree that E190, Math 53, Physics 7A, Physics 7B don’t directly contain any EE or CS in them?</p>
<p>In addition, I acknowledge that Berkeley students enter with a lot of AP credit, but L&S does not allow AP credit to fulfill breadth requirements. Personally, had I been in CoE, I would’ve had room to take perhaps 5 more CS courses since I tested out of 5 requirements with CC+AP credits, so I see your point, but not everyone gets out of three requirements; furthermore, it’s not far-fetched to say that most people only get out of only MATH 1AB…That would mean an average EECS student would be bogged down with Phys 7AB, Math 53+54, maybe Chem 1A, and 4 humanities breadth. All of those courses are not related to the CS major.</p>
<p>Although, with all that being said, I’m going to have to disagree with lunareclipse that time spent taking those classes could be redirected towards CS classes since L&S students have to deal with breadth courses…Despite that, L&S CS majors tend to tack on a lot of breadth courses to get them out of the way (personally, I declared my major my first year, and I completed all but one breadth at the point of my declaration) which leaves room for more CS classes.</p>
<p>My point is that either major is any better than the other although EECS students have a superiority complex that I choose to kindly ignore…I’m trying to convey that the core curricula of both studies are largely the same in rigor. L&S is not the easy way out in every circumstance, so don’t hate.</p>
<p>
Unless I am mistaken those classes are required for EECS but not CS</p>
<p>Sorry, I meant to include Math 54 as well…All I was saying was that those classes don’t particularly teach any EE or CS and therefore should not be considered in our discussion; however, I feel like my continuation of this subtopic is rendering whatever point we’re driving towards quite moot. </p>
<p>The OP, I believe, is implying that the distinction between BAs and BSs is in a grey area when we’re talking about some science majors offered in L&S, and I was trying to show the equality between comparable majors in CoE and L&S to demonstrate that both majors are equally rigorous.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>They actually are kind of necessary for engineering in general. They are part of the major, so they still count towards EECS’ unit total</p>
<p>E190 is not particularly useful unless people are not familiar with writing conventions of the science and technology world…I don’t recall any mechanics in CS or EE. Unless someone is heavy on graphics, I don’t know of any CS majors using more linear algebra than they could learn in an hour or two using Google. The EM learned in Phys 7B is retaught in virtually every EE class in a way tailored to that class itself, so 7B is more for background knowledge, and honestly, many people have taken enough physics in high school to know at least the basics of EM. While I agree that those classes provide fundamental tools for engineers, I don’t think they’re necessary for the major. Certainly, the rudimentary ideas from physics and math are vital to build proficiency in the engineering field, but L&S CS majors are taught the same tools albeit indirectly. Besides, are E190, Math 53, Phys 7A, and Phys 7B really the distinction between a BA and a BS?</p>
<p>^yes but they are requirements for EECS that are not requirements for CS, so they count as extra requirements that EECS majors have to deal with that CS majors get to skip. </p>
<p>I have heard of multiple EECS majors switch out to CS after they realized they could get out of those classes.</p>