why are Ivy League schools considered the best?

College Search & Selection
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<p>
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People should know about LACs by now. The 2 Democrat candidates came from LACs. Obama came from Occidental college and is known as a superior writer. It must be due to his experience at an LAC because LACs focus on writing. HRC from Wellesley which is another LAC.

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<p>Obama is knowned for graduating top of his class from Harvard Law School, not known for graduating from Occidental college. Besides, Obama attended Occidental college briefly and transferred to Columbia for undergrad.</p>

<p>The reality is that most people on the planet haven't really heard of LACs. I am surprised that the majority of people on this site do know of many LACs and think very highly of them. But, this isn't a reflection of the real world. My impression is that only a select group of hs students are aware of LACs.</p>

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<p>I also took Hoffman's intro chem course years ago, along with 250 other freshman, and it was pretty dry. TAs taught the sections (because they needed teaching credits to earn their PhDs) which were basically remedial study halls. They had no training in education and no interest in teaching undergrads.</p>

<p>In Psych 101 (over 1000 students in one lecture hall), they used undergraduate TAs to teach the smaller sections, and I was one of those TAs. I had fun but doubt my enthusiasm made up for the fact I had no clue what I was doing. A wizened community college professor would probably have done much better. Thus the ivy myth continues. Prestige, perception, allure, but not fact.</p>

<p>Some ivys are now concentrating on undergraduate education (ie Dartmouth, Yale, Brown) but this is still the exception, not the norm.</p>

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<p>I had no idea Obama even went to Occidental. I usually just associate him with Columbia and Harvard.</p>

<p>LAC's (even the top ones) are generally unknown. Maybe that's why a large percentage of their grads go on to get advanced degrees.</p>

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<p>Did you take Pysch 101 at Cornell? Pysch 101 now has no sections and is one of the best courses taught at Cornell. You know it's a good course when you have an audience of 1300 for each and every lecture (in 2 continents).</p>

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<p>^He transferred to Columbia after 2 years because Occidental was too small for him.</p>

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Obama is knowned for graduating top of his class from Harvard Law School, not known for graduating from Occidental college.

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<p>I believe he is known as the President of Harvard Law Review.</p>

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<p>
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Some ivys are now concentrating on undergraduate education (ie Dartmouth, Yale, Brown) but this is still the exception, not the norm.

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<p>Can you blame them? Research is what drives the academic world. Research is fueled by grad students and headed by professors. Harvard is Harvard and Yale is Yale, not because they teach a mean Bio 101 course, but because that's where advancements are made (you know, where the stuff taught in Bio 101 actually got discovered). Some schools care about discovery and innovation. Some schools care about regurgitating what is discovered at other schools.</p>

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<p>The first black president =D.</p>

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<p>
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He transferred to Columbia after 2 years because Occidental was too small for him.

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<p>not sure why he transferred...but, most people just know that Obama is Harvard alum. many don't even know that he is Columbia alum, either.</p>

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I believe he is known as the President of Harvard Law Review.

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<p>you're right...but the point was that he is known for his association w/ harvard, not w/ occidental college.</p>

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<p>What makes Ivy League colleges better?
talent of fellow students
fellow students are academically motivated
talent of faculty
quality of instruction
level of instruction that challenges excellent students
faculty-student mutual respect and interest
professional maturity and accomplishments of faculty
personal maturity of faculty
resources and facilities
academic climate
mentoring/role models
maturity and dedication of fellow students
originality and sophistication of ideas that are presented/discussed
opportunities for research and academic/professional experience
advantages seekeng jobs and grad schools later
professional contacts of faculty
quality of academic advising
special culture, tradition, history
imparts a sense of pride and accomplishment
prestige factor
environment that imparts desire for excellence
social consciousness/moral awareness/cultural growth
fun and pleasures that are not malicious or self destructive</p>

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<p>By the way, Cornell is 70% undergraduates and has an undergraduate focus similar to Princeton.</p>

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<p>
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By the way, Cornell is 70% undergraduates and has an undergraduate focus similar to Princeton.

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<p>Well, I think it depends on what you mean by 'undergraduate-focused'. I would say that that would mean that each undergrad gets a lot of support and hand-holding, and just having a high proportion of undergrads by itself doesn't really imply "undergraduate focus". After all, Fresno State University is 85% undergrad, but I would hardly call it an "undergraduate-focused" school in the sense that the school provides strong support to each undergrad.</p>

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<p>sakky-
Other things being equal, the proportion of undergrads is indicative of undergrad focus. </p>

<p>One counterpoint is that undergrads benefit from graduate programs. Graduate programs mean research opportunities for undergrads, faculty on the cutting edge, and so forth. Prospective undergraduates might be wise to seek an optimal balance between undergrad and grad programs.</p>

<p>Part of Cornell's mission is to become the best undergraduate-focused research university in the country. Example: the office for undergraduate research <a href="http://www.research.cornell.edu/undergrad/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.research.cornell.edu/undergrad/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Another counterpoint is that faculty can be TOO attentive. The real question is "How much faculty attention do undergraduates need and want?". How much should faculty initiate contact? It probably varies from student to student. Being available to the students who want and need contact...that should probably be the goal.</p>

<p>Factors other than undergrad/grad ratio that affect undergrad-faculty contact:</p>

<p>The emphasis and rewards given to faculty for advising</p>

<p>Student selectivity-better students seek more contact, faculty with better students welcome more contact</p>

<p>The prevailing expectations and "culture", academic and social, at a university</p>

<p>The nature of educational practices within your particular major-some majors require more direct contact with faculty</p>

<p>The amount of time faculty spend in their offices available to undergrads. Time is finite-time spent with grad students is time not avalable to undergrads</p>

<p>The number of research and teaching assistantships available to undergrads</p>

<p>The real student faculty ratio calculated by excluding part-time, administrative, emeritus, sabbatical, and research faculty. Based on FTEs spent teaching.</p>

<p>So, Fresno State might have a high proportion of undergrads but falls short in other areas</p>

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<p>
[quote]
sakky-
Other things being equal, the proportion of undergrads is indicative of undergrad focus.

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<p>But that's precisely the point - other things are never equal. </p>

<p>Look, the truth of the matter is that it's hard to be truly 'undergraduate-focused' when you have 13k undergrads, that is, unless the term 'undergraduate-focused' loses all meaning. Sure, the faculty might indeed be focused on the undergrads as a whole because there aren't that many grad students around. But each individual undergrad doesn't receive much attention. In other words, instead of having to compete with grad students for faculty support, you have to compete with other undergrads.<br>
The upshot is that an individual undergrad is not getting that much support, relative to that at other schools. As an undergrad, if I am not getting enough support, I don't care WHY I'm not getting it, and who is taking up that support. All I care about is that I am not getting the support that I want.</p>

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<p>True, other things are never equal. That's why God gave us so many brain cells...so we can figure out complex problems. Undergrad raio is an important factor to consider, among others listed in my earlier post.</p>

<p>You imply that larger undergrad population means less attention but that is not necessarily the case. Large schools can seem quite personal, not impersonal, if faculty pay attention to students. Whether the undergraduate experience is phenomenalogically personal and engaging depends on the factors I listed earlier, including undergrad ratio. Large schools can seem small. Conversely, small schools can seem impersonal if faculty are not committed to engaging undergraduates.</p>

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<p>Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that the eight ivy leagues aren't the eight best schools in the country above everything else, with schools such as Stanford, MIT, Chicago still around</p>

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<p>Milkmagn, you're right. But plenty of people don't have the knowledge to think otherwise.</p>

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<p>The Ivy League itself is renown, but individual universities (except HYP) are not. For example, if you tell an average Joe on the street that you attend Cornell, he probably wouldn't think anything of it. It's all a mind thing, really- one could get away with comparing Duke to Cornell. </p>

<p>I think it's strength in numbers. The Southern Ivies aren't in a true "league" together. If they were, then I think things would be a bit different.</p>

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<p>I don't think anyone is arguing that every one of the Ivies is better than all other schools in every way. And there is no accounting for personal taste. For some, the Podunk colleges are ideal.</p>

<p>But, everything considered, including the prestige factor, the eight Ivies are the best overall for those with discerning taste in undergraduate education.</p>

<p>And, I would go so far as to say that the traditional ranking of the Ivies is somewhat upside down program-for-program from the perspective of undergraduate educational quality with Cornell among the top four.</p>

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<p>i agree with sakky that percentage of undergrads is a poor proxy for undergrad focus. some schools really go out of their way for undergrads--for example, at MIT the most famous professors teach intro classes and simple recitations. such things would never occur at harvard. it really varies by institution.</p>

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<p>dcircle-
Undergrad ratio is a good proxy for undergrad focus. Most faculy teach at both the undergrad and grad level. They split their time between undergrads and grads. Grad students are more labor intensive and demanding than undergrads. Nobody can do two things at once. You can't manufacture more hours in the day, not even the professors at MIT. It's common sense. If you think that undergrad ratio is not an indicator of undergrad focus, then you must believe in magic.</p>