<p>I don't understand this phenomenon. Most of these programs are so competitive that if you can work this hard in high school, then you can also get into medical school. Getting into a combined program is nice, but it is not the end of the world if you don't. Most programs make you do stuff a normal pre-med person would do anyway too. Some argue is that you don't have to take the MCAT. I say that if you score this high on the SAT/ACT then you can score high on the MCAT. Can anyone here explain?</p>
<p>Yes,
first of all, many of these programs give you the flexibility to explore your interests through undergrad w/o the stress a typical pre-med student goes through. You have time to study abroad between your 2nd and 3rd years, you can take many other classes, you can even gain valuable experience in the medical field before entering med school. 2nd, medical school is very difficult to get into. Even the typical run of the mill med school has very low acceptance rates, therefore this early assurance is a great concept. 3rd, no, these programs definatly are not just like a typical pre-med curriculum, because they have minimum requirements, and the you cannot even compare the SAT to the MCAT in difficulty. Also, many of these students are passionate about medicine so they are not neccesarily "work this hard in high school", they are actually volunteering in a hospital because they want to. That's my 2 cents.</p>
<p>1) Insecurity, neuroticism</p>
<p>2) Overestimation of the MCAT's difficulty</p>
<p>3) Underestimation of how hard they'd have to work in these combined programs (esp. the accelerated ones)</p>
<p>4) Failure to realize that the premed attrition rate results from many factors, not just from students unable to achieve satisfactory grades; many students discover that medicine isn't a perfect profession (which it isn't) and find other careers which they like more.</p>
<p>5) <em>applies to accelerated programs only</em> Some of these applicants are in a rush to become a doctor as quickly as possible. Most med schools actually prefer older, more mature applicants so it puzzles me that accelerated programs even exist. But, med schools are wisening up and the number of combined programs has been slowly shrinking as more and more med schools are opting to shut down or curtail their combined programs.</p>
<p>There are some advantages to such programs -- it is certainly less stressful while going through school. Second, many of these programs function as an "honors college" -- not directly associated with a guaranteed admission, but part of an overall "package." Third, some of these programs are at very good undergraduate schools -- so if you like that school anyway, why not take the guarantee? No harm, no foul.</p>
<p>However, I also see an overreliance on hype to sucker neurotic eighteen-year-olds and -- more importantly -- their parents. For example, it is commonly advertised that 50% of all applicants will not be admitted to medical school. This is true and frightening, but it's also not relevant because these kids are carefully prescreened so that they wouldn't be in that 50% anyway. They interview well. They've been exposed to medicine already and will continue to be. They're good, studious students. They test well. They write good essays.</p>
<p>You are correct in your testing analysis: The MCAT is harder than the SAT, obviously, but test-taking skills do transfer very well, and in any case many of these medical schools have MCAT averages of 30 (75th percentile?) and select for SAT's at the 95th percentile or higher.</p>
<p>Many programs advertise that they allow students the options to double-major, major in a non-science, do research, study abroad, participate in non-medical activities, gain exposure to health care early, etc. They conveniently do not mention that normal premedical students can do all these things too, leaving it to impressionable teenagers that a normal premedical curriculum is extremely restrictive -- a false impression.</p>
<p>These programs are bait to try to lure otherwise-uninterested students to undergraduate programs -- and, usually, even medical schools -- that they would never have otherwise considered. And some premeds are just neurotic enough to bite.</p>
<p>yeah, I agree with you about the point on the undergraduate school BDM b/c the programs I am applying to, the undergrad schools interest me, and are good institutions such as usc, brown, bu and case. I think that it is a personal choice, but you should think twice before sacrificing your undergraduate experience just for a combined med program. And about the double-major etc.. I am obviously not only saying this because the schools have told me about that, it is what I have heard from many graduates of good undergrad schools. They are beaten down with the pre-med curriculum for 4 years, have an average GPA, and settle for a state med school ( I say this b/c I know many who have gone to u of louisville med school from harvard, brown, northwestern undergrads) which is quite a step down. Finally, these programs are not binding, so if you want to apply out, choose a different path, etc.. thats fine, which is why I say you should look at a program where you like the undergraduate school.</p>
<p>First off, most of these combined programs have you "settling" for a state school anyway. That's why they offer it.</p>
<p>Second, it sounds to me like you're examining the programs from the Louisville side of things -- where many students probably either have ties to the area or might have received scholarship funding -- rather than seeing them from the Harvard/Brown/Northwestern sides, where indeed most of their premeds are probably going to be attending medical schools like... well, like Harvard and Northwestern.</p>
<p>Third, it doesn't really make sense to speak of a "step down" when it comes to any medical school at all. Medical school is medical school -- it's ridiculously prestigious. The only question is, do you like it? Is it a good fit? A good match?</p>
<p>Fourth, it's not enough to "like" the undergraduate school. I withdraw all complaints if the student would have chosen there anyway. If you'd rather be at UCLA but USC offers you a BS/MD -- take UCLA. If you'd rather be at Princeton but Northwestern offers you a fast-track -- take Princeton. If you'd rather be at Ohio State but Baylor offers you a guarantee -- take Ohio State.</p>
<p>Go to the school you want to go to. Pick a school. If you get the guarantee at that school, then by all means -- take the guarantee. But go to the school you like.</p>
<p>right I agree, that's the advice I was looking for as well. I've seen you post and round and you seem very knowledgeable about the subject, but yeah I've only applied to the bmds where I actually want to go to undergraduate school.</p>
<p>i agree that a lot of people on here are too desperate to get into these programs. i think the general rule of thumb is that you should only apply to these programs if you would be happy to attend the school if you didn't get into the ba/md program.</p>
<p>I think that although there are a lot of people that really want to get into these programs, if you go to a thread for any college on collegeconfidential, you see tons of people posting chance threads and displaying how desperately they want to get into the school that they have applied to.
Of course, I totally 100% agree that if you should first look to see that you want to go to the school just as an undergrad and THEN look to apply for the BMD programs, if available, at the school....the fact is that not everyone has a "dream school", most people see some advantages in one school, and other advantages in another school. You can't really know you want to go somewhere until you really go there. I mean really, there is no sure-fire way to say you will like USC better than UCLA or vice versa, and acceptance to these programs will always be an added benefit which may well be what tips your decision if you don't really have a clear view of what defines your "dream school".</p>
<p>
[quote]
acceptance to these programs will always be an added benefit
[/quote]
My point is: most students tend to dramatically overvalue this so-called "benefit" because of the way the medical school application process has been overhyped.</p>
<p>I didn't expect so many responses this fast. Thanks
Here are some of my thoughts...</p>
<p>I think it's more about parents pushing their children to become physicians more than anything else. Maybe some parents "scare" their children into thinking that if they don't get into a program, then they will never become a doctor and earn their respect. A student probably realizes this is false, but at the subconscious level... they may still think it's true and that also plays a part in their desperation.
I hear about people applying to like 10 or more combined programs across the country and that really puzzles me. If you go through undergrad with the mindset that "I will get into medical school" then you will get into medical school, even if it is not on the 1st try. Furthermore, I totally agree that the MCAT is over hyped in difficulty.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you go through undergrad with the mindset that "I will get into medical school" then you will get into medical school, even if it is not on the 1st try. Furthermore, I totally agree that the MCAT is over hyped in difficulty.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The problem isn't that medical school isn't hard (most people will fail and persistence is not the only trait they are missing) or that the MCAT isn't hard (it is).</p>
<p>The problem is that these kids are being very carefully pre-screened to make sure that they are the sort of kids who will make it through.</p>
<p>The vast majority of premeds out there simply don't have what it takes, in one area or another. But the BS/MD admits are not in that category. The programs make sure of it.</p>
<p>interesting. is it possible that these programs would give someone the opportunity to go to a better med school than they would otherwise be able to get into? or does that not happen</p>
<p>Of course it's a very unpredictable process, and we never really get to know what these kids would have done otherwise. The minimum requirements (for example WUSTL's 3.8/36) are generally much less than is required for actual admission -- but do these kids barely meet the cutoffs? Would they have barely met the cutoffs?</p>
<p>Probably there's a handful of kids across the country who "sneak" their way into such a program and would have then collapsed in undergrad. Or something. But I doubt it's a large number.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Probably there's a handful of kids across the country who "sneak" their way into such a program and would have then collapsed in undergrad. Or something. But I doubt it's a large number.
[/quote]
To be honest, that is probably me. I know myself...I am very volatile in many regards, so I think my program is good for me.</p>
<p>I posted this in a similar thread a while ago:
I chose the BS/MD program route because I am sure I want to be a doctor at this point. This could obviously change, but right now I feel confident. I didn't really care where I went for undergrad and I didn't want to go to an uber-competitive school. My program allows you to apply to other medical schools and maintain your guarantee. If I feel like I want to apply to other medical schools, I will. However, I did like the program's medical school. Also, the program allows me to major in a difficult academic area because I am afforded the option of maintaining a relatively lower GPA than that of the average medical school acceptance. I also don't have to take the MCAT...yes, not the biggest deal in the world, but it's one less stress. I also avoid filling out numerous applications, which cost $$$ and I would have to look for profs to get recs from, etc. I also don't need to make the expensive trips to different schools.</p>
<p>I, however, wouldn't have changed my mind about medicine if I hadn't been accepted into a program I liked.</p>
<p>As for choosing a program over a school I liked better...I honestly didn't have that many options (for whatever reason...mainly financial), so I didn't "give up" anything to go here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Go to the school you want to go to. Pick a school. If you get the guarantee at that school, then by all means -- take the guarantee. But go to the school you like.
[/quote]
best advice ever, wish i heard this a year ago.</p>
<p>
[quote]
the program allows me to major in a difficult academic area
[/quote]
Again, majors from all areas do just fine in the medical school admissions game, without a major differential in admissions rate. This is not a unique element of the acceleration game.</p>
<p>It is true that the MCAT is one less stress out of the way -- although in the grand scheme of things, one exam is less important than an undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Again, majors from all areas do just fine in the medical school admissions game, without a major differential in admissions rate. This is not a unique element of the acceleration game.
[/quote]
No, I think you misunderstood me. You are right, there is no differential in admissions rate. But let's say someone majored in a traditionally difficult major (I will not state my major) and earn a lower than acceptable GPA for medical school. Medical schools, of course, don't care if your major is hard. They aren't going to give you any forgiveness. Because the major I am in is difficult, I will probably earn a low GPA, however, because I am in a program, it doesn't matter. I just need the minimum to matriculate.</p>
<p>I reason I applied is that it eliminates the competition and stress of applying to medical school</p>
<p>It's very easy for NCG and BDM to say what they are saying about these programs because they were able to get accepted into medical school through the traditional route. There are many, many students who don't get in through the traditional route who could have gotten into a program and maintained the GPA, who regret not joining a program. When I interviewed for my program, the students who gave us the tour said they wished they had known about programs because they would have surely jumped on it.</p>