Why are UK schools so easy to get into?

Student Lounge International Students
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<p>Interesting post Nauru. While I think it was in response to some previous comments, I think the opposite could be true for what you said. Just as a rigid system where one is forced to take electives is not ideal for some, a rigid system where one cannot or take a very small amount of electives isn't ideal for all either. You may prefer to take your other activities outside of the classroom but not everyone does and it unfair to say that it is 'wrong' or 'unintelligent' (not quoting, just paraphrasing, please correct me if I am wrong) to want that. Not everyone knows 100% what they want to take. I am very interested in political systems but that does not mean I am not also interested in art history, fashion, english lit, etc. and what better place to take advantage of people who are authorities on the subject than at your university, as opposed to finding some magical time your schedule. In the end, it just comes down to a matter of preference. I was having this discussion with my housemate who went to Cambridge and she prefers that much more focused system of education while I argued the merits of liberal arts. She felt that liberal arts prepared you for nothing and a lot less ready to get a job in the work force but she had a degree in English and works in theatre so really, it doesn't matter.</p>

<p>As for US students lacking maturity, I don't know what planet you are living on but students in the UK are quite similar. People exist in both areas who are immature. There are lot of mature US students and a lot immature UK students and vice-versa.</p>

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<p>megtfs-</p>

<p>Did you read the last paragraph of my post? </p>

<p>"Just my two cents, take it or leave it. I realize that not everyone has the same outlook as I do, and lots of people seem to be enjoying the North American style of undergraduate education just fine. Power to them, I hope they enjoy it. I, for one, prefer undergrad on the other side of the pond."</p>

<p>So yeah, I know the whole world doesn't think exactly like I do, and I was not at any point attempting to generalize the millions of students on this earth.</p>

<p>Also, "I don't know what planet you are living on" but I never said students of one nationality are more mature than students of another. ;) I said that students with certain specific reasons for attending university (which I mentioned) and students who are unsure what they want to do would be better suited to the American style of education. I never said that those exact same categories of students do not exist in Europe. (because they most certainly do!) </p>

<p>Just to clarify my position, I'm not against electives. Electives are great; individual choice is great. What I am against is forced electives outside one's major. What is an elective worth if you can't choose the course that truly interests you? I'll say it again: I realize not everyone sees this the same way I do.</p>

<p>Glad you enjoyed the North American system. I didn't so I moved to Europe for a few years. I feel more satisfied here, paying for the education I want and not paying for what I don't want. As I said: libertarian.</p>

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<p>I'm currently at Warwick, majoring in Economics...and I can tell you that there are 14 applicants for every seat in Econ. That itself shows it is as selective as HYPSM, although I'm not saying the Uni as a whole is on par with them. The fact does remain though, that I know some students personally, who have got rejected from LSE, Warwick, and UCL, and have got accepted at Princeton and Harvard. Students at the top 5 unis here get between 40 and 45 on IB usually, same goes for many of the IB students at top US unis. </p>

<p>One cannot write off the UK unis and say they are "easier" to get into than US ones...each to their own education system.</p>

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<p>An anecdote about the UK system and Warwick in particular:</p>

<p>Back in the day, I decided I would read Law if I did end up going to a UK university. Problem was, after Oxford, LSE, Manchester and UCL, there wasn't anywhere else I could see myself reading law, so I plonked down Warwick into my UCAS form, with Economics, Politics and International Studies as my desired course. Lo and behold, I got into Warwick, despite my entire personal statement being about law, its place in the world, and my desire to learn more about it.</p>

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<p>As far as applying from Hong Kong goes, I would say UK top schools are more "predictable" than the US schools. In my class, a kid with 10 straight "A"s on O-level ("A" in Hong Kong O'level is 10 times harder to get than those easy A in UK) was rejected by Harvard/Stanford while another kid with 7As got into Harvard.</p>

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<p>I know nauru, I wasn't addressing your whole statement. aw5k is the one who posted about US students being immature.</p>

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<p>I am sorry nauru .. i dont agree with you. .. I have a passion for all the sciences and history ... now what the hell am i supposed to do? high school education here is tooo exam oriented and the teachers suck .. how am i supposed to decide? Some people just love learning new subjects..that doesnt make them people who are doing things because "its in" but people who love learning new things but havent decided about what field they want to pursue.</p>

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<p>The reasoning that if there are more applications per place that makes it better is completely untrue, for the UK at least. Every year the middling universities have many more applications per place than Oxbridge. There are fewer people qualified to apply to Oxbridge in the first place and both universities have a historically low application-per-place ratio. UK applicants don't tend to used the reach-match-safety philosophy that US applicants do because a maximum of 6 applications (less for some subjects such as medicine) are allowed. People don't want to waste an application so tend to apply for 6 universities of similar standards asking grades the applicant is likely to get. I can't seem to link it but at <a href="http://www.ucas.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.ucas.com&lt;/a> there is a statistics page which gives (among many others) the following list of applications per place for 2005 entry.</p>

<ol>
<li>American InterContinental University - London (27.61) - Lots of American applicants bumping up application ratio I think .Never heard of it myself.</li>
<li>Wigan and Leigh College (25)</li>
<li>The Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts (21.88)</li>
<li>The University of Buckingham (20.31)</li>
<li>Brighton and Sussex Medical School (20.27)</li>
<li>Central School of Speech and Drama (15.84)</li>
<li>Hull York Medical School (14.11)</li>
<li>London School of Economics and Political Science (University of London) (12.53)</li>
<li>SAE Institute (11.33)</li>
<li>University of Bristol (11.23)</li>
<li>Southport College (11)</li>
<li>St George's Hospital Medical School (University of London) (10.32)</li>
<li>Basingstoke College of Technology (10)</li>
<li>King's College London (University of London) (9.61)</li>
<li>St Mary's University College (9.32)</li>
<li>Stranmillis University College (9.28)</li>
<li>The University of York (9.02)</li>
<li>The University of Edinburgh (8.96)</li>
<li>University College London (University of London) (8.89)</li>
<li>The University of Warwick (8.83)</li>
<li>The University of Manchester (8.24)</li>
<li>The University of Birmingham (8.17)</li>
<li>University of St Andrews (8.11)</li>
<li>The School of Pharmacy (University of London) (8.03)</li>
<li>University of Exeter (7.95)</li>
<li>University of Bath (7.72)</li>
<li>The University of Nottingham (7.7)</li>
<li>The Oldham College (7.68)</li>
<li>Worcester College of Technology (7.67)</li>
<li>The Glasgow School of Art (7.66)</li>
<li>University of Southampton (7.64)</li>
<li>The University of Reading (7.62)</li>
<li>University of Leeds (7.56)</li>
<li>The University of Durham (7.36)</li>
<li>Brunel University (7.06)</li>
<li>The University of Sheffield (7.06)</li>
<li>Cardiff University (6.98)</li>
<li>The University of Liverpool (6.93)</li>
<li>Aston University (6.92)</li>
<li>The University of Stirling (6.92)</li>
<li>Bolton Institute of Higher Education (6.88)</li>
<li>Queen Mary, University of London (6.82)</li>
<li>University of Ulster (6.73)</li>
<li>University of Glasgow (6.65)</li>
<li>CECOS London College of IT and Management (6.58)</li>
<li>University of Sussex (6.48)</li>
<li>Oxford Brookes University (6.4) - This is another uni in Oxford. Not actually Oxford uni</li>
<li>University College Chester (6.29)</li>
<li>The University of Essex (6.24)</li>
<li>Bath Spa University College (6.2)</li>
</ol>

<p>There are also more applications to universities in the middle of England, such as Warwick, because they are easy to get to for everyone, being central. Most people also apply to a local university, which bumps up the application ratio in big places like Manchester and Birmingham.</p>

<p>Finally no-one is taking into account that the first year intake at Oxford and Cambridge is about 3000-3500 students. I think it is less than half that for most Ivy league colleges (any one know?) so there are just more places available.</p>

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<p>waleedk87-</p>

<p>If your interests are not particularly focused then the North American system is probably a better fit for you. Nothing wrong with that. As I said, "Lots of people seem to be enjoying the North American style of undergraduate education just fine. Power to them, I hope they enjoy it." :)</p>

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<p>having lived in europe and in the USA , the only universities that compare to the top us universities are cambridge and oxford.
"I started out studying in Canada (which is very similar to the US system)" Not so much .There are some american universities where you have total freedon to choose you classes you don't have what they call core curriculum .
I lived in Belgium and at that time visited ULB( Universit</p>

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<p>I probs know more about this subject than anyone so i am going to sort this out right now. I live in the US (NYC) and have my whole life. I study at UCL in the UK as an undergrad and am doing so after turning down some fairly good US unis, namely BC, NYU, GW....UK unis are by no means easier to get into. one, you can't be considered at UCL unless you have a 1300 SAT and have taken around 3-4 AP's. In the US, taking 3-4 AP's and scoring 4's and 5's is a challenge even for the top students and you can't even be considered in the UK without them. But here is the killer...AP's are administered by a PRIVATE COMPANY and are in no way compulsory, but A-levels aren't, they are a requirement for all British students wanting to study at Unis. Also...A-levels in the UK cover material far more advanced than what one would get in standard high school classes, yet their material is on par (if not a bit harder depending on the subject) than AP material. so a standard unis prep prgram in the UK is much more difficult than a standard unis prep programme in the U.S. (seeing that no AP's were taken). so to get to admissions...U.S. unis on the surface look harder to get into percentage wise (simply b/c of the sheer number of applicants), but to be even eligible to apply to prestigious UK unis you must meet a fairly strict cut off (usually, minimum BBB for moderatly popular courses or in AP speak 444), thus cutting down the number of applicants. in the US, **** loads of people apply to Harvard for the hell of it (holding onto that sliver of a chance), but in the UK, people don't apply for the hell of it b/c, one, your limited to six applications, and two, one aleady knows the strict cut-offs prior to applying. also...admissions is solely based upon academic merit, not legacy status or athletic ability. in addition, when international students apply to Unis in the US they usually only apply to top 10 schools, so obviously admissions appears difficult. i'm in a three year degree (as is the norm in the UK) and in my fourth year would like to pursue a masters. so i can graduate with a masters in 4 years while someone studying in the US only has an undergrad degree. granted their IS a viable argument about employment though. for me to apply to a bulge bracket investment bank in the US with my degrees i'd most likely get turned down. but if i applied to their London branch i have just as much of a chance for a job offer (seeing that one doesn't mind living in London for a bit...and to be honest i really don't know why anyone would). so its def a different strategy but (at least in my mind) one that makes sense. oh...and one more thing...i really dont understand why people keep saying there is no "college experience", there absolutely is!</p>

<p>oh and i almost forgot...its a hell of alot cheaper as well. GW is bloody $50,000 a year, but Oxbridge is about half that for international students and you grad in 3 years.</p>

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<p>i am pinning down one unis when i say this but i know at BC one has to take something like six classes in theology/philosophy, what the hell is an econ major going to do with that? also...most of the profs in these big required lectures hand out top grades b/c most people don't want to be there and generally dont give a crap. also...undergrads in the UK must do a proper dissertation in their 3rd year, something that a US student couldn't do b/c the education is so broad. also there is much less hand holding in the UK, it is sink or swim, no questions asked. alot of the US students who are studying abroad at UCL (where i attend and i am an American) were shocked by the teaching system and find it incredibly difficult to adjust to in terms of how much work one must do on ones own. so in that respect UK students are (or are required to be) more mature. just my two cents</p>

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<p>I just realize that getting admitted to UK schools is as damn hard as getting to top US schools. Aside from Oxford and Cambridge, it is also hard to get admitted to the following schools:</p>

<ol>
<li>Imperial</li>
<li>LSE</li>
<li>Warwick</li>
<li>UCL</li>
<li>Nottingham</li>
<li>Edinburgh</li>
<li>Bristol</li>
<li>Durham</li>
</ol>

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<p>Ahhh...lol many replies here from different perspective. I suspect most differing opinions are due to different circumstances.</p>

<p>For an American, getting into top US unis (specially top state ones) is definitely way easier than getting into UK unis. </p>

<p>For a Brit, or a commonwealth member, like me, who take the A levels, getting into top UK unis (lets consider really top like Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, Imperial, Warwick, Durham, York maybe) is way easier than US unis. Dunno bout EU though. </p>

<p>The main reason is that UK uni selection is terribly results based. Its quite guaranteed entry if u get 4 As in your A levels and so on. Except for maybe Oxbridge. </p>

<p>So, from a Commonwealth member perspective (note), I agree that UK uni is much easier to enter. For someone in my particular educational background and location, Oxbridge is as hard to get in as maybe, U of Chicago, Northwestern, Berkely. Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Caltech/MIT are way way way harder to get in (based on selectivity), the rest of the Ivies on the next level with Stanford and the top LACs.</p>

<p>In terms of Rep, my own country recognizes quite a large number of unis generally. The UK unis i listed are about it though. Nothing "under" that. For US unis, all ivies recognized, MIT/Caltech. Top state schs like Michigan and Berkely (beyond that not very recognized). Possibly U of Chicago and the very top LACs (williams, amherst). </p>

<p>It really depends where you intend to ply your trade and where you live and so on. And most importantly, what sort of experience you want for your undergrad...</p>

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<p>In the sciences, US universities are recognized by scientists around the world as being the best funded programs, therefore, every scientist with international standing recognizes a Caltech degree. Your mother might not recognize it, but everyone in science and engineering knows the prestige of a Caltech degree. Caltech grads get whatever jobs they want, wherever they want. Period.</p>

<p>Secondly, the US invest THREE times as much money into tertiary education as Europe. A couple of Harvard economists recently suggested that this is the main reason the European economy does not perform near as well the US economy. </p>

<p>For the humanities, funding might not make an impact but for the lab based sciences and scientific research fields, there is no comparison. Currently, Europe (including the UK) loses many of it's best scientists to the US for this reason. There is a detrimental brain drain to the US.</p>

<p>For studying science at the highest level, it's hard to beat US universities. For what it's worth, the graduate level science programs in the US are filled to the brim with international students.</p>

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<p>There you go!!!!</p>

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<p>I am studying in an US system planning to apply to the UK, so here are my thoughts about this:</p>

<p>UK universities aren't easier to get into than universities in the US. The thing is that people in the US apply to universities that even they know they can't get into but they got nothing to lose so they just want to try, which is fine. With UCAS, the common application in the UK (most of the times the only means of applying to universities), you are only allowed to apply to 6 universities, so people tend to use those spots for universities that THEY KNOW they can get into.</p>

<p>About the money issue: OF COURSE US UNIVERSITIES INVEST MORE MONEY, it's because they've got it! Universities in the US can cost up to 40.000U$ a year just in tuition fees, while the tuition fee for UK/EU students in the UK is 3.000GBP, which is 6,000U$. It might be more expensive for internationals (9.000GBP per year, which is around 18U$), but it still is less expensive than many public universities for out-of-state students!
And also, being an EU citizen, I would much rather 9.000GBP (18.000U$) in my three-year degree in the UK than spend that much money on not even one year (sometimes not even one semester) of a good US university. But remember, it is also cheaper for internationals: in the UK you might spend around 54.000U$ on your full three-year degree, while in the U$ that doesn't even core the tuition fees of your first two years!</p>

<p>European universities are more academic-focused, and their degrees are shorter because they start getting in depth right away, rather than in the US where you can just play around with your degrees and change your major whenever you want. In the US they require you to take like science classes for a politics degree. I mean, what they hell is that? Being more academic-focused, they don't spend their money on athletic fields and stuff like that, they use it for what universities are for, ACADEMICS! And UK universities IMO teach students how to become mature, there is a lot more independent work, and more in-depth knowledge (rather than extremely broad education like in the US), which prepares students for the real world.</p>

<p>Admission in the US is not only grade-based, EC's and other stuff are also involved. In the UK, rest of Europe (and Canada as well), they are academic-based. Being a super swimmer or an excellent basketball player, or having 500 hours of volunteer work isn't gonna help you get your degree. What's gonna help you get your degree is your academic knowledge, especially in those subjects that relate to your program.</p>

<p>In the US they use SAT's for admission, which IMO is an useless exam that doesn't measure your intelligence or aptitude, it only measures how well you can take the exam. In the UK, coming from an US system, they look at AP results (although they might glance through your SAT's), which do measure your knowledge of the subject, much like A-levels (although AP's are easier). That is why they usually require 3/4 AP's at least for admission, at grades of 4 or 5. Not many people in the US have that kind of qualifications (although here in CC they do).</p>

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<p>It's easier in terms of that there's less things to consider, only grades. But it's harder in getting the grade's in the first place. AP's aren't anywhere near A-levels in difficulty.</p>

<p>Ok, I'm looking at say an AP Physics paper, which was my worse subject, having to work my ass off for a B at A/s, and I'm sure I could pretty much ace all the questions. Now consider that Full marks at A/s would only get you 50% at A-level...Ok, they don't look at your transcript, but most top unis also pretty much require you to have at leasst 6-7 A*s at GCSE, and pretty much expect the rest to be As</p>

<p>Now you need 3 A's at A-level to even apply to Oxbridge. How hard do you think it is to get in with that? Needing you to roughly get 4.0 in a full set of College-level courses, a complete AP course load, and basically a perfect GPA. You see more people getting in because only the cream of the crop apply. In the US, when you have schools like UCLA getting 50,000 applicants, or even say Harvard getting 20,000 applicants...if 20,000 people are the cream of the crop, well I have to say, an awful lot of people at the top....not that special. In the UK, they say that around 20% of the people taking an A-level will get an A in it. Now, taking into account that people usually take around 4, that's 0.2 * 0.2 <em>0.2 *0.2</em> 100. Theoretically only 0.16% of the people who take A-levels will get the grades needed to apply for oxbridge. Easier than being in the top 20,000 high school students to be in the running for harvard? The high school education in the UK is very vigorous, with a standardised curriculum for each subject. Getting an A is just as hard whether you're in Eton, or a local comprehensive, and an A shows exactly the same level of achievement.</p>

<p>Yes UK schools are far easier to get into once you have the grades. It's just that if you couldn't get into Harvard, then you wouldn't be able to get those grades for Cambridge in the first place. It's getting the grades to get in that's hard....</p>

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<p>hey naura
i am an international student from india.
tell me for undergraduate course in engineering, which is superior; US or UK??
i have options of Purdue, PSU, OSU, Michigan Ann Arbor, IMPERIAL ,kING'S, MANCHESTER, NOTTINGHAM, BATH
Plz guide me in this.it's very urgent!!!!
good day</p>

<p>999</p>

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<p>Imperial College is one of the best in the WORLD for engineering.</p>

<p>Go for Imperial</p>