Why can't the Ivies do what Stanford, Davidson, Duke, Vandy, ND do?

College Search & Selection
201

<p>pizzagirl,
I guess we could continue to go round and round and round on this (and maybe we will), but let's focus a bit, shall we? </p>

<p>Ultimately, this goes to what a student is looking for and will get as a result of his/her college selection. It's quite clear that you and I would choose or recommend different types of colleges. But let's focus on the prospective college student who has no pre-determined area of study and is looking for the best undergraduate experience, meaning one that would include great academic opportunities, an active and varied social life, and which would offer a great athletic life (defined as the opportunity to participate in athletic teams/clubs and the opportunity to attend major college sporting events with national relevance). </p>

<p>If a student wanted this for his/her undergraduate experience, where would you direct them?</p>

202

<p>Of course, they could happily go to the schools that you mention, Hawkette, and they do go to those schools. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, the places like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and MIT have no problems attracting an overabundance of stellar applicants who are thrilled to get acceptances because these colleges offer what they are looking for. In fact, many turn down places like Duke and Stanford to go to HPY because they prefer what HPY have to offer. Not many people turn down HPY to go to Davidson, Duke, Vandy, etc.</p>

203

<p>pizzagirl, northstarmom,IOng, etc,
While you may not have joined in, the campus impact of sporting team activities can be quite large on a college campus. As an example of the positive effect that a Davidson-like sporting achievement can have on a college campus, consider the press release below which was issued from Davidson College after they advanced to the NCAA men's Sweet 16. </p>

<p>Do you really think that there would be a significantly different (ie, much lower) level of enthusiasm and campus excitement if the school was not Davidson, but XYZ Ivy College? I don't. </p>

<p>"Davidson College has been getting a lot of attention since the 10th-seed Wildcats upset 2nd-seed Georgetown in the 2nd round of the NCAA Tournament on Sunday, March 23.
In advance of Davidson’s Friday night game against 3rd-seed Wisconsin, here’s an informal look at how the tournament is affecting some of Davidson’s numbers.
Average regular daily sales at Davidson College Bookstore before Sunday, March 23: $1,700
Daily sales at Davidson College Bookstore on Wednesday, March 26 (the first day “Sweet 16” t-shirts were available): $35,000</p>

<h1>1 – Place of “Davidson College” on Googletrends’ list of most-searched words Sunday night (“hotness trend: volcanic”)</h1>

<h1>4 –Googletrends’ Sunday night ranking of the search term “Davidson University”</h1>

<h1>10—Googletrends’ Sunday night ranking of search term “Davidson Wildcats”</h1>

<h1>11—Googletrends Sunday night ranking of search term “Stephen Curry”</h1>

<p>Teams with bulldog mascots that have been beaten by Davidson in the NCAA tournament: 2
Bulldog toys stuffed into the mouth of the Wildcat statue on the Davidson campus: 1
Number of consecutive games Davidson has won to date: 24 (longest winning streak in the country)
Players on Davidson’s team: 14
Players who come from countries outside the U.S.: 6
Players who speak French fluently: At least 4
Years Bob McKillop has coached at Davidson: 19
Percentage of McKillop’s four-year players who have graduated in that period: 100
Percentage increase in transfer inquiries received by Davidson’s Admission Office since Sunday’s win over Georgetown: 1,200 percent
Since Sunday, calls to the Admission Office inquiring about Davidson’s application deadline (which has already passed): 10
Unsolicited applications received since Sunday, even though Davidson’s deadline has passed: 1
Reported number of Facebook “friend” requests received by one member of the Davidson basketball team after Sunday’s victory: 1,800
Miles from the Davidson campus in Davidson, N.C. to Ford Field in Detroit, Mich. (the arena hosting Davidson’s “Sweet 16” game against Wisconsin): 648.65
Buses secured by the college to transport interested students to the game (Davidson’s Board of Trustees created a fund to cover the cost): 7
Students making the trip by bus: Approximately 350
Seating capacity of Ford Field for the NCAA Tournament: 72,000
Students, faculty, staff, alumni, townspeople and others who rallied to wave goodbye to the team when the Wildcats’ bus left campus Wednesday, March 26: Perhaps 1,000
Doughnuts consumed at the on-campus “pep rally” broadcast during the CBS Early Show Thursday, March 27: 600
Times the Pep Band led pep rally guests in rousing versions of “Sweet Caroline”: 2
Year in which Davidson last made it into the "Sweet Sixteen": 1969
Days that Tom Ross ’72 has been Davidson’s president (he counts): 241
Average days per year that it’s a great day to be a Wildcat: 365</p>

<p>Davidson is a highly selective independent liberal arts college for 1,700 students. Since its establishment in 1837 by Presbyterians, the college has graduated 23 Rhodes Scholars and is consistently regarded as one of the top liberal arts colleges in the country."</p>

204

<p>Yes, I've seen that, and actually forwarded it to my niece. (She did not go on the bus to Detroit since she was traveling to SC for her sport; however, her bus stopped en route and they watched the game.)</p>

<p>Davidson is in a different place, however, because it is a school that has very little name recognition. The basketball thing is greatly increasing Davidson's brand awareness, and for that the students are grateful -- at least some people will know what their college is! I don't think any of the Ivies are in that same position, however.</p>

205

<p>Percentage increase in transfer inquiries received by Davidson’s Admission Office since Sunday’s win over Georgetown: 1,200 percent
Since Sunday, calls to the Admission Office inquiring about Davidson’s application deadline (which has already passed): 10
Unsolicited applications received since Sunday, even though Davidson’s deadline has passed: 1"</p>

<p>This just goes to show how stupid people are, though. "They have a good basketball team -- gee, I think I'll go ahead and apply!" Not "they have a good academic program." </p>

<p>NU got a surge in admissions after the Rose Bowl, I believe. That doesn't "please" me as an alum. Why do I want a bunch of people at an institution like NU who are motivated by the fact that some NU students know how to throw a pigskin and golly gee, now they want to go to NU too? They can stay away as far as I'm concerned. Come here because you're primarily interested in a fine education, please.</p>

206

<p>Hawkette, to your question: "Do you really think that there would be a significantly different (ie, much lower) level of enthusiasm and campus excitement if the school was not Davidson, but XYZ Ivy College? I don't."</p>

<p>What if it were MIT? or U of Chicago? (and yes I understand they're not Div I, but just work with me on the principle) Do you think there'd be a signficantly different / lower level of enthusiasm? Why or why not?<br>
Should MIT or U of C also look to recruit really good athletes and perhaps get into Division I? After all, doesn't college sports bring benefits to a campus?</p>

207

<p>
[quote]
</p>

<p>From today's NY Times obituary of Robert Goheen, president of Princeton (1956-1972):</p>

<p>Quote:
When the Rev. Theodore Hesburgh, early in his tenure as president of Notre Dame, asked Dr. Goheen in 1987 how his school, much the same size as Princeton, could go about getting Princeton’s reputation for scholarship, Dr. Goheen answered, "First, fire the football coach."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Great quote, Booklady, but I think Dr. Goheen is fooling himself if he thinks top scholars would flock to that freezing, remote location for 9 months without the diversion and reward of Notre Dame football! :)</p>

208

<p>Pizzagirl wrote:</p>

<p>
[quote]
This just goes to show how stupid people are, though. "They have a good basketball team -- gee, I think I'll go ahead and apply!" Not "they have a good academic program."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Maybe you ought to go into the college counseling business, Pizzagirl.</p>

209

<p>
[quote]
So by the middle of the 20th century, these eight schools were forced to make a choice: they would either adopt the emerging recruiting practices of the growing national football/basketball powers (athletic scholarships, relaxed academic admission/performance standards, etc.) in order to compete successfully with those other schools in the big revenue spectator sports, or they would foreswear those practices and the national spotlight and be satisfied with a lower level of athletic competition among themselves with teams comprised of true scholar-athletes not generally headed for professional sports. They chose the latter.

[/quote]
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<p>While your conclusion is logical, I think you are extrapolating quite a bit from a few published sentences.</p>

<p>In any event, we shall soon see what HYP will "choose" with respect to their commitment to nationally competitive athletics with the advent of their new financial aid policies. A guarantee of 100% financial aid for 4 years without the obligation to stay on the team is a pretty attractive package for an athlete. The only thing missing now is national exposure. (How about an "all-Ivy Sports Channel?" :) )</p>

210

<p>northstarmom,
I'm in full agreement that historically student matriculation decisions favor HYPSM as those colleges have among the highest yields in the country (along with places like BYU and several publics). The non-HYP Ivies also have impressive numbers, though often heavily boosted by large amounts of ED admittance. </p>

<p>I think it should be noted that the Ivies have a geographical advantage with their northeastern concentration and in close proximity to the largest concentrations of top high school students and surrounded by a media that is far more familiar with them than with their non-northeastern peers. Excuses aside, the Ivies have a yield and concomitant student profile advantage, but with the expansion of the pool of top high school students, this advantage is narrowing and student preferences are not nearly as clearcut as a decade ago. </p>

<p>As the competition increases for the coveted freshmen places at America's top colleges, more students are expanding their college searches. And as that search expands and that greater variety of colleges comes into play, more than ever it is incumbent on the student to understand the nature of the full undergraduate experience, inside and outside of the classroom. While the Ivies themselves are somwhat dissimilar, the differences with places like Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, and Notre Dame are probably much sharper when you consider aspects like the social and athletic life at the college. Some will enjoy the differences, some will not, and some will not "get" the differences without seeing them first-hand. </p>

<p>pizzagirl,
Re your MIT, U Chicago question, I do think it would increase the enthusiasm and excitement among their students and the alumni. It might also show a different side to these institutions that would give them broader appeal. You may think that the administrations don't care if they get more applicants or more publicity (and maybe they don't), but I don't understand why you continue to see such developments in such negative terms. Having fun or getting excited about your college's sports teams CAN co-exist with academic quality.</p>

211

<p>Hawkette: "Re your MIT, U Chicago question, I do think it would increase the enthusiasm and excitement among their students and the alumni. "</p>

<p>So why was your original thread title just about "Why can't the Ivies do what Stanford, Duke, etc. do?" It seems that you'd really like to see the Ivies move up in the world of competitive spectator sports. But why just the Ivies? Why didn't you ask "Why can't the Ivies / MIT / U of C do what Stanford / Duke do?" In other words, would you also really like to see MIT and U of C do the same thing you advocate that the Ivies do?</p>

<p>"It might also show a different side to these institutions that would give them broader appeal."</p>

<p>Are MIT and U of C in need of broader appeal, in your opinion? It would seem to me that they, like any other top school, have no shortage of highly qualified applicants they can choose from.</p>

<p>I might also note that earlier upthread, you may have missed when jessiehl (an MIT alum) said the following ... "At MIT, we would have revolted if administrators had tried to bring big-name sports in. Not because it would necessarily mean that the academic standards would decline (Stanford seems like a good example of a school that has both big-name sports and top academics). But because OUR culture is OUR OWN, and we do not believe that it should be dictated by admins, or, for that matter, by sports team coaches. One of the easiest ways to infuriate the entire MIT student community is to say that we should change our culture to be like some other college. We are not some other college." So again, could you explain why you believe that a winning sports team would increase the enthusiasm and excitement among the MIT community?<br>
It seems to come around to your assumption that because YOU find winning sports teams fun and exciting, that everyone else does too -- even if they don't know it, they'd just get all swept up in all the fun.</p>

212

<p>"While the Ivies themselves are somwhat dissimilar, the differences with places like Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, and Notre Dame are probably much sharper when you consider aspects like the social and athletic life at the college."</p>

<p>How so? Are you suggesting that someone who is choosing between any of the Ivies and Northwestern, for example, is going to find that all the Ivies cluster together on one end and NU is an entirely different experience because NU has Big 10 athletics? That distinction would only be important IF IT'S SOMEONE WHO VALUES GOING TO BIG 10 ATHLETICS. If it's not, then the student has to choose between the Ivies and NU based on whatever other personal factors and preference they have. Please, stop thinking that the culture at a NU is SO much different than the culture at any of the Ivies. You are far overstating the influence that being part of the Big 10 has on NU.</p>

213

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<p>While your conclusion is logical, I think you are extrapolating quite a bit from a few published sentences.

[/quote]

Bay, it's not just my conclusion, but is the well-documented and widely accepted reason for the formation of the Ivy League:</p>

<p>
[quote]
After the Second World War, the present Ivy League institutions slowly widened their selection of students. They had always had distinguished faculties; some of the first Americans with doctorates had taught for them; but they now decided that they could not both be world-class research institutions and be competitive in the highest ranks of American college sport; in addition, the schools experienced the scandals of any other big-time football programs, although more quietly.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>[Ivy</a> League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<a href="emphasis%20added">/url</a></p>

<p>For some fascinating insight into this, you should take a look at this article from Penn's alumni magazine about how Harold Stassen, Penn's then-president (who would go on to become a perennial U.S. presidential candidate), initially impeded the formation of the Ivy League because of his reluctance to forsake big-time college football at Penn:</p>

<p>[url=<a href="http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1101/bernstein.html%5DNov/Dec"&gt;http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1101/bernstein.html]Nov/Dec&lt;/a> Gazette: Harold Stassen and the Ivy League](<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League%5DIvy"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League)&lt;/p>

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<p>"I think it should be noted that the Ivies have a geographical advantage with their northeastern concentration and in close proximity to the largest concentrations of top high school students and surrounded by a media that is far more familiar with them than with their non-northeastern peers. Excuses aside, the Ivies have a yield and concomitant student profile advantage, but with the expansion of the pool of top high school students, this advantage is narrowing and student preferences are not nearly as clearcut as a decade ago. "</p>

<p>What has happened is that all over the country, students are expanding where they apply to college. Consequently, the Ivies, which used to have to work extremely hard to get applicants from far away places like Calif., Florida, and Texas, now have an overabundance of such applicants. They also have an increasing number of applicants from all over the world -- students who, incidentally, are attracted by the academic quality, not by whether the schools have football or basketball national championships.</p>

<p>Also, the states that have the largest numbers of high school students are the most populous states, places that increasingly are not in the NE: Florida, California, and Texas come to mind. The Ivies don't seem to be lacking at all applicants from such places.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, annually, when it comes to the US News' pix of academic all stars, Harvard remains atop the list of the colleges they have chosen to go to.</p>

<p>Where is your evidence that students are turning down Ivies for places like Duke, Vandy, and Stanford due to the sports cultures at those schools? It's well known that students who like warm weather may choose Duke or Stanford over some Ivies. </p>

<p>It's also well known that in the past, students would choose Duke and places like Vandy and UNC over places like Harvard due to the wonderful merit aid that Duke and UNC would offer some of their stellar admits (though with H's new financial aid, I doubt that tactic will work this year). </p>

<p>"Re your MIT, U Chicago question, I do think it would increase the enthusiasm and excitement among their students and the alumni. "</p>

<p>U Chicago markets itself as "the place where fun goes to die," and it's students are quite proud of that slogan. If it were to have big time sports, it may attract more students, but not the kind of students that it wants. It wants students who love academics -- a lot -- not students whose idea of a great college is a place with lots of sports fan type fun.</p>

215

<p>I don't think that the extension of the argument to MIT and U Chicago works. My answer was in response to a question. </p>

<p>MIT and U Chicago have no history of playing Division I sports and make no pretensions that they are competitive either qualitatively or with the athletic scene that they create. The arguments that many of the Ivy defenders are making are, IMO, far better applied to these colleges and to the LAC universe. Unlike the Ivies, these colleges don't pretend that they are athletically competitive.</p>

216

<p>Hawkette, could you clarify if your argument is:</p>

<p>1) HYP et al are losing applicants in the cross-admit battles as qualified students who would otherwise choose HYP are choosing Stanford, Duke, etc. because they want to be part of colleges with nationally-relevant sports teams and they can't get that at the Ivies ... and if HYP doesn't do something, they'll lose out and no longer be on top ...
OR
2) It's not that HYP et al are "suffering" from not having nationally-relevant sports teams, but Stanford / Duke students really seem to enjoy it, so why shouldn't HYP share in some of the fun.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

217

<p>"Please, stop thinking that the culture at a NU is SO much different than the culture at any of the Ivies. You are far overstating the influence that being part of the Big 10 has on NU."</p>

<p>I mean to say social life as opposed to culture in the above --- carry on!</p>

218

<p>"MIT and U Chicago have no history of playing Division I sports and make no pretensions that they are competitive either qualitatively or with the athletic scene that they create."</p>

<p>But wouldn't a winning MIT team, with all the pomp and circumstance and crowds and tailgating and excitement and campus spirit created, be JUST AS EXCITING for MIT students as you think it would be for HYP students? Maybe the MIT students just haven't been exposed to the fun of a championship sports team.</p>

<p>Or do you think that MIT students <em>themselves</em> are a different breed, who would be less likely than HYP students to get excited about a winning football or b-ball team?</p>

219

<p>pizzagirl,
I'm not thinking about this in terms of cross-admits, but now that you raise it, I don't think that HYP (or SM) are in peril at all. Their status and their historical and prospective yields look strong and stable to me for years to come. </p>

<p>However, re the non-HYP Ivies, I think that there is much more of a competition. And this is with more than just the subset of Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, and Notre Dame. You'd have to add others like Georgetown and USC and the Division III colleges like U Chicago, J Hopkins, and Emory. There is a real broadening out of student quality taking place throughout the USNWR Top 20-30 national unis and LACs. IMO, the differences in undergraduate academic offering among these colleges is slight and does not differ greatly from what you'd get at any of the non-HYP Ivies. </p>

<p>In terms of college selection, the nature and quality of the social and athletic life can sometimes be important considerations and, IMO, the more that these are considered, the better the non-Ivy choices compare. While I don't begin to think that the colleges with top Division I sports will appeal to all students, I do believe that for the subset of students who will factor this in, the non-HYP Ivies will trail Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, and Notre Dame.</p>

220

<p>"In terms of college selection, the nature and quality of the social and athletic life can sometimes be important considerations and, IMO, the more that these are considered, the better the non-Ivy choices compare."</p>

<p>This is where I disagree with you. If we're looking at the social life of Stanford/Duke/NU/Rice/Vandy/ND and comparing it to the social life of Brown/Cornell/Columbia/Penn/Dartmouth, I don't think you can make any blanket statement that the first group has a "better" campus social life because their sports happen to be in bigger leagues. Frankly, I think the distinctions in campus social life among these schools are linked more to individual campus "flavors" and idiosyncracies (Vandy students dress up for games, Dartmouth has a party-hard tradition, Columbia has NYC at its disposal, etc.) than any division of non-Ivy athletics vs Ivy athletics. And don't forget, MIT, Caltech, and U of C also compete with this group and they have no shortage of comers either. </p>

<p>Here's the bigger question. What if your hypothesis turns out to be true and the non-HYP Ivies (B/C/C/D/P) do indeed wind up trailing S/D/NU/R/V/ND? Is that a good thing, or a bad thing, or just what it is?</p>