<p>I think Coureur hit the nail on the head in post #22. The real issue here is not why Harvard doesn't play bigtime basketball and football (that's obvious--its collective ego couldn't take the the thrashings). The real issue here is what can we--as a group of mature, freedom-loving people--do to get more beer onto the BYU campus?</p>
<p>Hawkette,</p>
<p>Honestly...I could not go to a school that did not have big-time athletics, but not everyone feels this way...I don't see why this is so hard to comprehend</p>
<p>This is discussed monthly I swear...</p>
<p>"Maybe we’ll just agree to disagree, but all I am saying is that there are several darn good academic schools that play Division I athletics at a high level and which provides a nice boost to the social life of its students, provides energy to a campus and keeps alumni connected over the years. I think that the Ivies might benefit by copying some aspects of what they are doing. "</p>
<p>But that's what YOU think. If students at a place like Harvard agreed with you, they'd have gone to a place like Duke or Stanford. Many students arent into the so-called fun of watching sports. Such students can be very happy at places like Harvard and the other colleges that lack a huge sports fan culture. They would be less happy at colleges that have big sports fan cultures. Not everyone likes what you like.</p>
<p>". For example, many Duke alumni are still ga-ga over their basketball teams (men and women) decades after their graduation and follow the teams intently in person or on ESPN or via internet radio. I doubt that the Ivy alumni have the same passion for their sports teams. In a national context, the games didn’t really matter much when they were students and they don’t matter much after they graduate. "</p>
<p>Many Duke alum were gaga over watching sports way before they went to Duke. In fact, the chance to be at a highly ranked college that also was a sports powerhouse was a big reason why they chose Duke.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, there are people like me who will never understand why students select colleges based on their sports teams because people like me do not find it fun to be a sports spectator. The craziness that goes with being a sports powerhouse is a turn-off. When I was in high school, my high school was a regional champ in football, and I didn't care. Watching sports bores me. I was delighted to go to a college where most students felt the way that I did.</p>
<p>Since you like watching sports, enjoy whatever college that you choose that is into being a sports powerhouse, but don't try to make every college like the one that you love.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is discussed monthly I swear.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Usually in a post originated by Hawkette.</p>
<p>Hawkette: "While I concur that one can’t have it all at a single college, I think it is possible to have great academics and great athletic life and, for some students, this is a pretty appealing combination. "</p>
<p>Yes, it is a pretty appealing combination for some students. That's why there are places that offer those things, which students are free to apply to. Different strokes for different folks. I don't think the Ivies need <em>more</em> people applying to them, however. Especially if <em>my</em> kids start applying, LOL. </p>
<p>Like Northstarmom, I couldn't imagine selecting a college based on their sports teams standings (unless I were actually an athlete playing on that team), I don't find it particularly fun to be a sports spectator, and I too would not want a college where the social scene revolved heavily around cheering on the team. One of the things I liked about NU was indeed the fact that you could indeed do the Big 10 thing as much or as little as you liked. You could go to the football games and yell yourself hoarse, or you could say the heck with it and head to the library, and that was cool too. It wasn't necessary for everyone to treat sports as all-important or to have that be a shared experience, for us to be happy with the school and have school spirit. </p>
<p>"Frankly, I suspect that most of the Ivy folks have no idea what a Vanderbilt-U Tennessee football or basketball or even baseball game looks like and the fun that goes with these types of events and thus they have no idea what they are missing."</p>
<p>I know you don't mean this in an offensive way, but I think this is a very offputting. "They don't know the fun they're missing?" I think someone smart enough to get into an Ivy has figured out what it's like to rah-rah behind a football or basketball team -- after all, the majority of hs in this country have such teams -- and they either find rah-rah-ing the team to be fun, or they don't. And, of course, the fun of rah-rah-ing the team can have nothing to do with what league the team plays in or how well the team does. </p>
<p>Again, to use my Greek analogy (and thanks to MomofWildChild for suggesting Reed as an example; that's precisely the type of culture I was thinking of), it would be like me saying "Frankly, I suspect that most of the Reed students have no idea of the fun that goes with pledge formals and fraternity / sorority events and thus they have no idea what they are missing." Would that be a compelling argument to rally the Reed folks to pressure their administration to start a Greek system there?</p>
<p>"For example, many Duke alumni are still ga-ga over their basketball teams (men and women) decades after their graduation and follow the teams intently in person or on ESPN or via internet radio. I doubt that the Ivy alumni have the same passion for their sports teams."</p>
<p>Yes, I doubt the Ivy alum have the same passion for their sports teams. But the question is ... so? You seem to believe that passion for a sports team is a universal Good Thing. Why is that?</p>
<p>"Let me also ask one very hypothetical question-why shouldn't the Ivy League start offerring athletic scholarships again? I mean, keep the admission standards with the AI, but why not use some of those billions in endowment dollars and give scholarships to some of their student-athletes?"</p>
<p>Why should they? Why athletes as opposed to some other talent? (art, music, etc.)</p>
<p>"But the question is ... so? You seem to believe that passion for a sports team is a universal Good Thing. Why is that?"</p>
<p>I've decided that either Hawkette is a student who is a big sports fan who wants the prestige of attending an Ivy, but thinks the experience would be grim without a big sports fan atmosphere or Hawkette is an Ivy prestige-loving parent with a high achieving high school student who is a big sports fan, and consequently doesn't plan to apply to an Ivy.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, you can often tell the value of something by how much people will pay for it. Thousands of people will actually PAY a lot of money to see a good college sporting event (hundreds will even pay to see a mediocre high school basketball or football game). Put on a college student art exhibit, charge $50 a ticket, and see how many people show up.</p>
<p>College football, especially, does amazing things for an entire college community. They are all-day social events, with tailgating, halftime shows, taunting of the opposition, and parties afterwards. They are a place for students, athletes, alumni, fans, the marching band, cheerleaders, to all mingle and broaden their horizons.</p>
<p>Hawkette you DO understand that your kind of big sporting events need "mass participation"....as you said yourself, only some will find it attractive, a "significant" proportion of others at the ivies probably dont want it/have no preference for it/dont need it....you cannot implement sth requiring "mass participation" w/o the necessary "mass" support, it is unfair to the masses</p>
<p>as others have aptly pointed out, there are many ivy quality colleges with the "ga-ga" over their sporting teams, so for the SOME that want the experience, they are absolutely free to go to those schools w/o imposing their will on others who have no wish (whether its because of a genuine dislike or having had no prior chance to appreciate the fun it brings along is irrelevant), currently, for such action</p>
<p>if you want the prestige of an ivy and the hooha over sporting events, then you should realise that the prestige of ivies can be partly attributed to the ivory tower/academically pure image that was cultivated thru a deliberate attempt to distance themselves from the sporting mobs</p>
<p>p.s. i think northstarmom is very insightful =)</p>
<p>Listen, to each his own. No school is flawless. Can't we leave things at that?</p>
<p>I agree with Hawkette. If there was one issue that caused my D hesitation in choosing Harvard, it was the school's pathetic sports scene. (She is an athlete). One of the main highlights of her freshman year turned out to be the Harvard-Yale football game.</p>
<p>The thing I find difficult to understand, is how universities which obviously aim to be the best in all they do, fall down in this arena. Anything worth doing, is worth doing well, right? If Harvard is going to spend the money on 44 Division 1 sports teams, why doesn't Harvard make the effort to make them as esteemed as every other facet of its offerings? Stanford does it, and I think it is embarassing that Harvard can't.</p>
<p>"Pizzagirl, you can often tell the value of something by how much people will pay for it. Thousands of people will actually PAY a lot of money to see a good college sporting event (hundreds will even pay to see a mediocre high school basketball or football game). Put on a college student art exhibit, charge $50 a ticket, and see how many people show up."</p>
<p>No one is going to pay $50 a ticket to see the chemistry class do experiments, either. Does that mean that a university shouldn't find investing in chemistry labs or hiring world-class chemistry profs as important as renovating the football stadium? Just because Joe Six-pack prefers a winning football team doesn't mean that an Ivy is obligated to provide it. They aren't about the Joe Six-packs of the world. If they were, then they'd offer credit for watching football, drinking beer and reading celebrity gossip. </p>
<p>"College football, especially, does amazing things for an entire college community. They are all-day social events, with tailgating, halftime shows, taunting of the opposition, and parties afterwards. They are a place for students, athletes, alumni, fans, the marching band, cheerleaders, to all mingle and broaden their horizons."</p>
<p>TourGuide -- I went to a Big 10 school! You needn't tell me that they are all day social events with tailgating, etc. - I know that!</p>
<p>College football is fun, for the people who FIND that kind of thing fun. For the people who don't, it's not. There doesn't seem to be a dearth of Ivy applicants, and there doesn't seem to be a big problem whereby Ivy students have less school spirit than other universities. </p>
<p>There are periodic NU / U of Chicago tiffs on this site (which are silly, but that's another story). There's a place for students who like NU, who like an active Greek system and Big 10 athletics, and there's a place for students who like U of C, who value a highly academic and quirky culture. I would never want to see U of C lose its own self by adding a big Greek system, joining the Big 10, and trying to become a quasi-Northwestern. What's the point? Likewise, if the Ivy students are happy, I don't see what's the point of trying to turn Ivy campuses into Stanfords and Dukes.</p>
<p>"Anything worth doing, is worth doing well, right?"</p>
<p>No. IMO, sports aren't anywhere near as important as academics and the arts.</p>
<p>"If Harvard is going to spend the money on 44 Division 1 sports teams, why doesn't Harvard make the effort to make them as esteemed as every other facet of its offerings? Stanford does it, and I think it is embarassing that Harvard can't."</p>
<p>I was never embarrassed one bit that NU (during my day) had such a lousy college football team. I was seriously supposed to be embarrassed to go to one of the nation's top schools because they sucked in FOOTBALL? What kind of whacked-out value system is that?</p>
<p>"They are all-day social events, with tailgating, halftime shows, taunting of the opposition, and parties afterwards."</p>
<p>YK what our taunt was at NU? "That's all right, that's ok, you're going to work for us some day." LOL.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No one is going to pay $50 a ticket to see the chemistry class do experiments, either.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But people will pay their entire life savings to a hospital and team of doctors that can cure a frightening disease, which is why chemistry classes and other activities that educate future physicians are a very good idea, well worth societal investment. I like to watch football, and pay for that by watching it on commercial television, but the priority has to be on educating young people to solve the REALLY important problems in life, like war and disease, not on educating them to cheer in unison when someone throws an inflated pigskin across a goal line.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>coz Harvard doesnt need to do so?</p>
<p>stanford is absolutely a great school, and if they want to do it, its fair enough....so if your D whos an "athlete" ranting bout the pathetic sports scene in Harvard, go to stanford....its the same for someone who isnt the least bit interested in sports, you cant possibly go to stanford and DEMAND them to stop their sporting teams and sports related publicity that you happen to find irking</p>
<p>college life is much more than being just about sports....and i say that as an athlete</p>
<p>^^ Because Harvard belongs to an athletic conference that prohibits athletic scholarships. It isn't a decision for just Harvard. The whole conference would have to change.</p>
<p>"If Harvard is going to spend the money on 44 Division 1 sports teams, why doesn't Harvard make the effort to make them as esteemed as every other facet of its offerings?"</p>
<p>Because sports aren't part of their mission? Because Harvard's goal isn't to create the athletes of the world, but the brains and leaders of the world? </p>
<p>BTW, does any Ivy offer academic credit for physical education classes?
Do any top schools, for that matter? What's the "best" school that offers a phys ed major?</p>
<p>Let me try a couple of questions that might help frame what I was getting at from the start:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Do you think it would be cool if the college playing in the NCAA Men’s Basketball Elite 8 with the chance of advancing to the Final Four was not little Davidson, but XYZ Ivy college? I think it would be pretty neat. And I strongly suspect that most of the students, employees and alumni at XYZ would be pretty jazzed as well. Why is saying this such an awful thing to some of the Ivy folks? </p></li>
<li><p>Do you think less of the academic quality of Davidson or Stanford for their athletic accomplishment in the Men’s tournament or less of Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame for their accomplishment in the women’s tournament? I don’t.</p></li>
</ol>