Why do people NOT believe in God?

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Well, this is as real as it gets. If there is an “actual reality” out there that we cannot perceive, it seemingly does not affect us in any distressing fashion. If there is no “actual reality,” then…so what? We have what we have. The very concept of reality is a human concept, and it seems that the best we can do is to define it in terms of human perspective and experience. Yes, we can come up with an infinite number of “what if” scenarios about existence, but what would this yield? Intellectually, it is perhaps an interesting whimsy, but I think that the vast majority of people are rather practical at heart, and will make do with what they can perceive.</p>

<p>KDSHLFSHDHFSDF</p>

<p>we could just be some tiny peice of predesigned or randomized data that changes constantly.</p>

<p>■■■■. we could just be a computer game.</p>

<p>LIFE is SDKFKSDFFDFKSDFSDJKGFSDJKJFKHSDHFSDFHHSDFSDFSDF</p>

<p>Eventually… if the Aliens come to Earth maybe they could have the Dimensional Capacity of intelligence to somehow inform us. Or they could abuse or existence for theirs…</p>

<p>Man Science is just OBSERVATION!
MATH is just HUMAN LOGIC!
ENGLISH is just HUMAN SENSE of LOGIC!</p>

<p>EVERYTHING is just HUMANS UNDERSTANDING OF THINGS.</p>

<p>But how do you know I’m correct. What if we are just single humans thinking we are talking to other humans when they are just programs?</p>

<p>This is when life comes to an extreme. You can’t say anything is absolute in this world. No matter how deep knowledge you have. THERE can always be A BILLION things deeper.</p>

<p>What do you mean we have what we have Sithis. Even if you go to the Theory of Atoms, the Atoms has what it has.</p>

<p>So I guess using human logic ATOMS are everything, so Atoms revolve and control this entire life of existence. Not humans, or organisms, or objects, BUT EVERY FREAKING ATOM!</p>

<p>@physics: Clearly you haven’t been following this argument long, lol. A summary of the last 2000 pages:</p>

<p>Mutation as a mechanism is insufficient in my opinion because:</p>

<p>1: Of the mutations we have observed, virtually all are either harmful or have no effect. These variations will not be preserved by natural selection.</p>

<p>2: of the mutations that are beneficial, virtually all involve the destruction of information, not the gain of it. From the above example, ABCD losses A to become BCD. If A was harmful in certain circumstances, then BCD would be more successful in those circumstances and would be more likely to survive. Example: the antibiotic-resistant bacteria that have developed. A mutation caused their nutrient absorbing mechanism to be greatly weakened, with the result that they did not absorb antibiotic fast enough for it to kill them.</p>

<p>3: Of the mutations that remain, most involve an arbitrary change that performs the same function as before, but that prevents them from being recognized by an agent that targets their biochemistry. Example: flu virus and HIV, which mutate frequently and thus have slightly different chemical “signatures”, which prevents the immune system from recognizing them.</p>

<p>I know of only one example that does not fit into the above categories. This is the example of microbes that normally metabolize certain molecules. An arbitrary change to the code for their metabolizing mechanism caused it to “fit” different molecules than before. This is the only case of true new functionality being developed, and even this is nothing like that required for cross-species evolution. The microbe is still a microbe that metabolizes molecules, it just metabolizes different molecules.</p>

<p>4: In anything above microbes, single mutations just don’t produce the amount of change needed. While it only takes a simple change for a bacteria’s enzyme “key” to fit a different molecular “lock”, it would take huge changes to produce something enough like feathers to give the creature a survival advantage.</p>

<p>5: Following from that, the development of advanced structure by small random changes is extremely improbable, even on giga-scale for years, and even if mutations could produce the neccesary changes. Take feathers: To begin on the road from dinosaur to bird, a little raptor must have mutated so that its scales were pointed, more like spines.</p>

<p>So what? How is little stubbly dino more likely to survive than his normal friends? His chances are slim to begin with. Mommy dino probably lays dozens of eggs in her lifetime, but since the population isn’t growing wildly most of those never have children of their own.</p>

<p>However improbable the mutation was at first, it’s now an order of magnitude worse, since it has to happen many times before it becomes likely that an individual will survive and pass it on.</p>

<p>And really, how much advantage do the spines give? Maybe a +5% chance of survival during cold winters? A +2% chance of being spat out be a predator? It will take many, many generations before that small advantage begins to tell and the mutation becomes common. Only when that happens can we start rolling the dice for the next mutation, where the process repeats…</p>

<p>6: Finally, structures exist for which I can construct no plausible sequence of changes that would produce it. The most well-known of these is the cleanerfish:</p>

<p>It is in NO WAY beneficial for a small fish to develop an instinct to swim into the mouth of a large predator fish, unless the predator already has an instinct to allow small fish to swim in to and out of its mouth safely.</p>

<p>It is in NO WAY beneficial for a large predator fish to develop an instinct to allow small fish to swim into and out of its mouth safely, unless the small fish already has the instinct to clean the predator’s teeth.</p>

<p>Whichever of these developed first would be gleefully taken advantage of by the other, until it was outcompeted by more pragmatic members of its species.</p>

<p>@Columbian: yeah, I hate to tell you, but you’re really just a low-level NPC in our virtual reality game. I’m working on the “That Doesn’t Compute” achievement: if I can make 100 of you suffer system errors I get a badge for my user profile.</p>

<p>lol totally true that I haven’t looked at the past 2000 pages, thanks for filling me in. </p>

<p>Did you look through to the “beneficial mutations” section of the article? </p>

<p>I think there are lots of examples, just that are microbial, because the larger a species, the longer it takes for a mutation to manifest itself through natural selection.</p>

<p>Some examples:
[Examples</a> of Beneficial Mutations and Natural Selection](<a href=“http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html]Examples”>http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html)
[Beneficial</a> mutation - RationalWiki](<a href=“http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Beneficial_mutation]Beneficial”>Mutation - RationalWiki)
[Beneficial</a> Mutations - SkepticWiki](<a href=“http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Beneficial_Mutations]Beneficial”>http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Beneficial_Mutations)</p>

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[Solipsism</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism]Solipsism”>Solipsism - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>Well, for starters, that’s the 6th time that top link has been posted for me here :P.</p>

<p>So yeah, I’m aware of that. The mutations on that list fall into the categories I mentioned. I’ll look at the others later. Right now I’m going to bed.</p>

<p>Haha, sorry. Again I didn’t go through all the posts. Talk to you later</p>

<p>@Sithis - Lol… I am no fool. Solipsism is in no way correct. And how do I know? I don’t. But I’m sure you will know because your mind will be understanding what I mean.</p>

<p>What if the theory of Solipsism is so obscure that nobodys mind is real, and that there is one giant guy up their with the true perception of life?</p>

<p>Logic is failing in the end. :)</p>

<p>Man either my Dopamine increased 10 fold from ending question masturbation causing a surge or reading apush has opened my minds understanding…</p>

<p>I can’t answer even my self? Why? Because all answers on Earth are ‘logical’ based. Not pure. |</p>

<p>^I don’t think that you are being remotely coherent any longer.</p>

<p>i think that the concept of religion arose because people were afraid of everything and wanted to believe that there was someone was there to help you.</p>

<p>I don’t have the time to respond to your comments about defending the rather disgusting passage in the bible so I’ll move onto anything. (Note: the corruption and immorality of some religions says nothing about their falsehoods, just questions their worth)</p>

<p>I see that your creationist uber-ignorance strikes again in 184. This was refuted here:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065510586-post1740.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065510586-post1740.html&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>(And you know what that post used? Scientific sources. What do you use? Your misinformed, dishonest opinion)</p>

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<p>Extremely dishonest. Mind providing a legitimate scientific source rather than what you’ve been told (or read) by your fellow creationist nuts?</p>

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<p>First, not all antibiotics work on enzymes. Second, enzymes don’t work by the lock and key model. </p>

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<p>More completely stupid uneducated lies. Some things in evolution haven’t been figured out yet obviously, but that doesn’t mean that explanations won’t be forthcoming. </p>

<p>Read mifune’s post: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065057740-post637.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1065057740-post637.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Re: Humans and ape ancestors:</p>

<p>Of the many intermediates that we have not all are lineal descendants of humans (some are branch-offs) but that’s not an argument against anything. They fossils that we have found fit into a family tree and show a progression by anatomy and age through radioactive dating/cytochrome c.</p>

<p>Re: The Earth can’t be flat since you’ve gone on a plane.</p>

<p>Don’t worry, the Flat-Earthers have plenty of counterarguments to that. They also have counterarguments to the fact that photos have been taken in outer space showing the Earth and other planets as round. What’s the argument? That the photos are fraudulently made up to brainwash children into thinking the Earth is round and prevent them from becoming “good” Christians. And these deluded religious nuts think that they actually win arguments with round-Earthers. If I had more time, I think it would be a good exercise for me to argue for the flat-Earth opinion (and you argue for the round-Earth opinion) to give you a taste of just how pathetic it is to argue against someone so rigidly deluded about something as you are with evolution.</p>

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<p>If by that you mean ideas (which were not strictly creationist) such as “All creatures we see today were created in the exact same form, including poodles and Siamese cats” or “all human beings exist, fully formed, in the sperm of their fathers”, then yes. It took a long time for those ideas to die.</p>

<p>But those ideas are not stated in the Bible, they were theories developed at times when they seemed reasonable, which have been shown untrue by further research.</p>

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<p>I was specifically referring to Darwin, and to the scholars on whose writings Darwin based his theories. With the understanding of heredity that existed in Darwin’s time, evolution was extremely reasonable. Mendelian genetics has since shown that the ability of organisms to vary over generations is inherently limited.</p>

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<p>However, once a person has taken the step of becoming an atheist, it is extremely hard for them to accept anything that could threaten evolution, since to do so would be to admit the possibility of a God existing.</p>

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<p>Whether other people consider their view reasonable is irrelevant to whether my belief is reasonable. My beliefs, and those of everyone else, stand or fall on their own ground.</p>

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<p>I disagree. This “sheer amount of evidence” simply does not exist. Tiny amounts of evidence exist, and evolutionists claim that large amounts of evidence will be discovered in the future. This claim may be true, but it would be unreasonable to assume that it must be true.</p>

<p>As an example of what I mean, take this article:</p>

<p>[The</a> Age of the Earth - Human Population Growth as a Creationist Clock: Frank Leibfarth](<a href=“http://orgs.usd.edu/esci/age/content/creationist_clocks/human_population.html]The”>http://orgs.usd.edu/esci/age/content/creationist_clocks/human_population.html)</p>

<p>The author addresses a creationist claim that the current world population is inconsistent with the idea that humans have existed for an extremely long period of time.</p>

<p>I agree with the author that population growth is a rather spurious base on which to estimate the age of the human race, considering how variable it can be, but notice the arguments he uses:</p>

<p>Problem: There are not enough people in the world to explain continual growth over the last 500,000 years.</p>

<p>Creationist Explanation: Population growth was 0 until about 10,000 years ago, when humans were created.</p>

<p>Evolutionist Answer: Population growth was virtually 0 from 500,000 years ago to about 10,000 years ago, and only began growing exponentially because of the development of agriculture which occurred at that time.</p>

<p>The problem is that both of these theories would produce the exact same evidence: a population which has been growing exponentially since the dawn of civilization, and which was fairly small at that dawn.</p>

<p>There is one thing that could separate the two: the evolutionist theory states that huge number of humans lived in the pre-civilization era, while the creationist theory states that very few did. So you maybe you could confirm the theory by searching for evidence of all those billions of people?</p>

<p>Well, those people don’t exist. So, problem #2:</p>

<p>Where are all the remains of early humans?</p>

<p>Creationist answer: They never existed. Humans were created recently, and developed civilization rapidly.</p>

<p>Evolutionist answer: They existed, but they were destroyed. Only a tiny fraction of early humans left remains which were preserved.</p>

<p>This is not “sheer amount of evidence”. At best, it is a theory which adequately explains the lack of evidence.</p>

<p>Incidentally, why is it that [this</a> page](<a href=“http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html]this”>http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html) has now been linked to 6 times in this debate? Sure it’s the top Google result for “examples of beneficial mutations”, but it’s also hosted on what appears to be the personal website of a circut judge in a small town in central Florida, and the home base for some disgruntled parents who were protesting the uniform policy of the local school system.</p>

<p>[The</a> Polk County School Uniforms Page](<a href=“http://www.gate.net/~rwms/Uniform.html]The”>http://www.gate.net/~rwms/Uniform.html)</p>

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<p>Mendelian genetics has nothing to do with mutation, genome duplication or anything like that. The argument that Mendelian genetics shows that genomes can only fluctuate so much and makes evolution “unreasonable” is another scientifically ignorant creationist argument. You are not kidding anyone by saying that you’re objective or scientific about this. Apparently you’ve had a very poor science education. Your arguments come straight from creationist books.</p>

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<p>Herein lies your bias. You think your denying of evolution makes an argument for your religion that much easier. </p>

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<p>Well then don’t pointlessly say that you think your beliefs are reasonable. Its a waste of a statement - you wouldn’t talk about them if you felt otherwise. I think they’re idiotic, just like the vast majority of the scientific community. Everything’s relative.</p>

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<p>You are totally wrong. Do follow the literature in the field? (Here I’m making a wasteful statement because the answer the clearly no.) Experiments are done daily. Research is conducted daily. Fossils are uncovered daily. Scientific papers are received and accepted daily. Data is collected daily. The evidence for evolution increases at an exponential rate. Only idiots or people who don’t care think there is a “tiny” amount of evidence or that there might be some evidence in the future but its somehow not coming along. Where do you get the idea that evolution is just “sitting still?” Where do you get the idea that evolutionary biologists are all scientific conspirators or people who don’t know what the hell they’re doing? You have to be pretty biased or blind to evidence to say some of the things that you do. </p>

<p>Just wondering, but do you get somewhat decent grades in school?</p>

<p>Re: Population growth</p>

<p>Human population growth is a non-argument and almost as stupid as using the salts in the ocean or helium in the air as a standard to measure age. </p>

<p>Do you have any understanding of the conditions necessary to create a fossil? First of all, they normally take over 10,000 years to form in the first place which is one of many ways to debunk your “the Earth is probably <10,000 years old philosophy” Fossilization only happens under a narrow range of situations. Most bone tissue just decays like other organic matter. But that doesn’t mean that we haven’t found multi-million year-old fossils or remains of human ancestors, like the 3.2 million year old Lucy:</p>

<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus[/url])”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The number of transitional fossils that we’ve found between apes and humans has increased dramatically in the past 100 years and new remains are found regularly.</p>

<p>FYI, the Earth is between 4.5 and 4.6 billion years old, which has been confirmed multiple times by radiometric dating procedures from meteorites within our solar system. (With multiple procedures and multiple samples all converge to roughly the same age.) Arguing that the Earth is or could be 5,000-10,000 years old is absurd and extremely ignorant.</p>

<p>How young do you think the Earth could be at minimum? 5,000? 2,000? Lower?</p>

<p>Sorry I’ve been taking longer than usual to respond. I haven’t had as much time for this site as I used to.</p>

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<p>Mendelian genetics shows that unless something introduces new genes/alleles, variation is limited within a certain range.</p>

<p>Prior to its discovery, it was believed that environmental factors could cause hereditary changes, and there was no reason to believe that there was some inherent limit to the process.</p>

<p>If, as Lamarck believed, an animal that stretched its neck could pass on a longer neck to its descendants, then evolution would be inevitable. This would be similar to producing a movie by showing it to audiences, getting their reactions, and then putting more of the things that they like into the next version.</p>

<p>If, as Darwin believed, stress to the reproductive organs caused traits in the offspring to change, then evolution would be quite plausible. This would be similar to producing a movie by showing it to audiences, and making changes to the plot if the audiences disliked it.</p>

<p>Mendelian genetics teaches that variability is inevitable within a given range, but that to exceed this range new genes/alleles must be added to the species’ gene pool. The only known mechanism for this is mutations, which are changes to the code, not to the traits themselves. This is similar to making a movie by showing to audiences, then choosing a letter in the script at random and replacing it with another random letter, or choosing a sequence of letters at random and moving it to a new place at random, then finally showing both movies to audiences and keeping the more popular one.</p>

<p>This is something I do not find plausible. However, the only alternative is that the original gene pool was created, and some people find this option to be even more implausible. I do not.</p>

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<p>I’m puzzled as to how you interpreted that in that way. That’s like saying “if you believe that the Earth is flat, then you can’t believe that the space program really happened” means that the speaker is inherently biased in favor of the Space Program, because they think that their believing in the Space Program makes their Round Earth beliefs that much easier.</p>

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<p>Alright then. Can we then agree that it is pointless to say “X percent of Christians say this” or “Y percent of scientists say that” and stick to what we personally believe?</p>

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<p>I’m going to be a computer science major, not a biology major, so no. I find the subject interesting, so when I see something new I usually research it, but increasingly I find that the new discoveries are all the same.</p>

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<p>All of this may be true, but I have only your word for it. Every time I ask for specific examples, I get inadequate ones, and when I read actual science of the issue, I’m usually surprised by the lack of evidence rather than otherwise.</p>

<p>It seems to me that the vast majority of this research is done by people who have already accepted evolution as true, and are now researching things that are useful given that.</p>

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<p>Have I ever stated that is was?</p>

<p>The theory of evolution is changed all the time, as new information creates problems in older versions of the theory. This is true of all science, but most scientific disciplines eventually reject the old, ever more difficult theory in favor of a new, unified one.</p>

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<p>Have I ever stated that?</p>

<p>Most evolutionary biologists are, as far as I know, honest people trying to make sense of the world. You don’t have to be crooked to be mistaken: many brilliant minds believed Geocentric Theory, Newtonian Mechanics, and Euclidean Space also.</p>

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<p>That question is irrelevant here, but yes.</p>