<p>“LOL” -> Most eloquently argued.</p>
<p>Sorry if I assume that proven science is more verifiable than a religious view that is demonstrably false(young earth creationism)</p>
<p>Apology accepted.</p>
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<p>It’s not just “following the crowd.” There is actually a ton of empirical evidence - genetics, biogeography, fossil record, speciation experiments, biochemistry, molecular data, DNA sequencing etc. - supporting it. Properly understanding it requires a non-prejudiced outlook and particularly of the primary literature. You can’t be scientifically objective and still reject it. You claim to base your rejection on scientific grounds but your opinion on just about everything science-related is like its straight out of a creationist (fundamentalist religion) manual.</p>
<p>I can understand why people use their god as a scientific explanation to counteract ignorance of certain things but the deeper you understand science, the more you realize how superfluous god really is in everything. </p>
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<p>But most theologians do and adopt the opinion that you can still believe in a god while accepting evolution. Others, however, believe that Christianity and evolution cannot be compatible or that the religion is losing something important if we’re descendants of “lower animals.”</p>
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<p>If you’ve never read something by him and haven’t experienced his points then how can you have an opinion? It’s like saying “he doesn’t agree with my religion so I don’t want to hear his refutations.” You have your own preconceived opinion, which is nothing more than prejudice. Dawkins is often impossible to disagree with and uses things that creationists and biblical literalists don’t quite grasp - logic and evidence.</p>
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<p>Not by Johnson, but I have read some of Adnan Oktar (a Muslim fundamentalist who writes the most ignorant books on the planet) and Duane Gish, but not complete books. I’ve also read quite a few disparaging reviews of creationist books by scientists.</p>
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<p>They’re well documented in the other thread. But teaching you evolution is like trying to convince Charles K. Johnson that the earth isn’t flat. </p>
<p>On that note, someone brought up the International Flat Society earlier (in the other thread) and everyone seemed to dismiss it as satire. That was NOT satire. Some people (thankfully a slim minority of “educated” people) really are that demented. Arguing with an evolution-denying Christian fundamentalist is bad enough; trying to argue with a flat-earth geocentrist on top of that would just drive me insane.</p>
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<p>If people “study their religion enough,” shouldn’t all followers of that religion all have the same moral and naturalistic opinions? Yet your beliefs are just as different as any other Christian aside from acceptance of Jesus and a single god. From the bible you can get just about anything you want out of it given how vague and often contradictory it is. Some of the ultra-fundamentalists will claim that you both can’t be a Christian and a round-Earther since the bible implies that the world is flat. Others will object to that and say that the bible can be read as the Earth being round. The same goes for geocentrism, evolution, beginning of the universe, etc. </p>
<p>And of course, same goes for moral truths. You cheery-pick good passages and things worth following today (although I don’t see why you need to read a bible or become some religious nut to be aware of these). There’s also many disgusting passages —</p>
<p>Killing Gays:</p>
<p>*“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”<a href=“Leviticus%2020:13%20NAB”>/i</a></p>
<p>Death for those who hit their parents:</p>
<p>*“Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.”<a href=“Exodus%2021:15%20NAB”>/i</a></p>
<p>Death for Adultery:</p>
<p>*“If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.”<a href=“Leviticus%2020:10%20NLT”>/i</a></p>
<p>Death for those following other religions:</p>
<p>*“Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.”<a href=“Exodus%2022:19%20NAB”>/i</a></p>
<p>Kill the entire town if one person worships another god:</p>
<p>The passage is too long so I’ll only post the verse: (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)</p>
<p>Death of Women who are not virgins on their wedding night:</p>
<p>*“But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.”<a href=“Deuteronomy%20%2022:20-21%20NAB”>/i</a></p>
<p>Death for Working on the Sabbath:</p>
<p>*“The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.”<a href=“Exodus%2031:12-15%20NLT”>/i</a></p>
<p>Slavery:</p>
<p>*“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.”<a href=“Leviticus%2025:44-46%20NLT”>/i</a></p>
<p>Even Jesus approves of the beating of slaves:</p>
<p>*]The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.”'<a href=“Luke%2012:47-48%20NLT”>/i</a></p>
<p>And how about this one? A slavemaster won’t be punished for pounding a slave with a rod so long as they survive for a day or two longer:</p>
<p>*“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.”<a href=“Exodus%2021:20-21%20NAB”>/i</a></p>
<p>The bible is a human invention but for many that’s not too obvious. The Rosetta Stone shows that today’s Abrahamic religions are just copycat versions of the Egyptian mythologies. I think the more one understands history, culture, psychology, and therefore where all this comes from, the less someone is likely to be taken in by it all.</p>
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<p>Defending against creationist ignorance in the year 2010 is the perfect example of how “old ideas die hard.”</p>
<p>And what do you mean when it was first invented? By whom? Aristotle? Lamarck? Chambers? Spencer? Wallace? Darwin? Evolution’s evidence is far better than it was in the 1850’s.</p>
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<p>Many people lose belief in god because of evolution. In fact, the more one understands the science of evolution usually the more one is pushed toward non-belief. Some take the theistic approach to it but why introduce something that doesn’t need to be there? But it’s not as if people are like “I’m an atheist so I better “believe” evolution.”</p>
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<p>In your opinion. The Christians you don’t think are reasonable think that they themselves are reasonable so this is a pointless statement.</p>
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<p>This isn’t true at all. People who make this claim don’t understand the sheer amount of evidence in favor of evolution.</p>
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<p>You understood the sarcasm in #142 right?</p>
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Yes, but I chose to take it literally (and took at as being directed towards myself, which it was not) in order to acquire an apology.</p>
<p>Hm. I haven’t read through this thread yet, but I just want to put out a couple of opinions. Sorry if they are silly, inflammatory, or have already been stated. I’ll edit this post if necessary.</p>
<p>I am not Christian, but I’m agnostic. I mean, I am rather sure that scientists have given enough proof on the idea that Jesus of Nazareth existed and was a rather cool guy who I would high five, since with how the New Testament states things, he was rather good at getting followers and rather intelligent. I do believe that such things had happened, even if in slightly smaller scales or in different ways, earlier in the Bible, but he was still a very interesting figure in Judeo-Christian beliefs.</p>
<p>There are many religions, of course, so people are bound to believe different ones. The way we are raised can often highly affect our opinions and lead us to be very adamant about them. Two of my best friends are devout christians, one of whom has done missionary work. They both are very open-minded though, and understand that Christianity is more about forgiveness than blame. Many people that I have met who are atheists or non-christians who hate/dislike the religion don’t like it due to meeting someone of the religion that was a bad person, or at least a bad indication of what the religion is about. I would liken it to people hating the Islamic beliefs because of some radical people.</p>
<p>I have also met several Christians who very strongly believe in science. In the case of my best friend who has a very intelligent family, all of which are religious, and also all very interested in sciences. And believe in evolution. </p>
<p>I’ll also say one other thing. The Bible that is used by most Christians today(I’ll say King James Translation) is affected by the culture of the times. To begin with, the Bible has been translated many, many times. And I truly doubt that every translation has been perfect or that everyone would interpret the Bible in the same way. I also think that things have been added to the Bible, just as things have been taken out for not fitting what the religious officials deem to be needed. Back when the Bible was written, having slaves was a common thing. Marrying young was a common thing. Marrying many people, having handmaidens, so many things, were what? Common! Slavery was in America until the 1800s, for goodness sakes. I believe that the Bible is very much affected by what is the culture of the time. And that still continues on today. There is a reason that people today often look over the parts where they talk about beating your slave for being disobedient. Why? Because it doesn’t apply to us right now. It has literally no meaning in our culture.</p>
<p>Um. But. Yeah. That is just my view of it. I like the Bible more as a book for study, as it is filled with a lot of fascinating history about the time periods and is very telling to the culture of the times. I remember when I was studying the roman influences on the Hebrew people in the New Testament and it really is very fascinating. But. Yeah! People might not believe because they don’t see the proof. Sure, if there is a God, I guess it only makes sense to believe, but some people don’t have that drive in them. I have faith only in what I see before me, like my friends and my dog. I don’t know if there is a God. If I believed in a God and confided in such a being, I would say that I’m more confiding to myself and using an outer source of an idea to find the courage that I previously did not believe I had. I find religion to be helpful to certain people, but maybe it isn’t necessary to everyone. </p>
<p>But I am rambling now, so I apologize. ^_^</p>
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<p>Whether or not there is evidence has little to do with the fact the many people just follow the crowd. If there is evidence, then they are following the crowd in the right direction, but whether the crowd is right is irrelevant to whether many people will follow it.</p>
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<p>Well, I don’t know. My understanding of the issues is based on my own thinking and research, not “creationist manuals”. For example, the fact that the Ape-to-Human transition is not supported by a smooth progression of fossils. I didn’t learn that from a creationist brainwashing program. When mifune made that claim, I followed his link to the Wikipedia article, and instead of taking the list at face value I looked up each one. In doing so I discovered that the family tree of humans shows a striking lack of limbs, and is in fact almost entirely dead-end species.</p>
<p>The claim:</p>
<p>Human evolution is one of the most well-documented evolutionary transitions, including (and a list of about a dozen names).</p>
<p>The truth:</p>
<p>Of the names listed, only 2 are actually believed to be part of the progression from ape to human. One of these, Homo heidelbergensis, is virtually indistinguishable from modern humans. It had technology similar to that of modern tribal people. The brain sizes of the skulls found range between 1100 and 1400 cm^3, while according to Wikipedia modern human brains range average 1130 cm^3 for women and 1260 cm^3 for men. It is believed that H. heidelbergensis had a spoken language, and buried its dead. It averaged 6’ tall and was more powerfully built than the average modern human.</p>
<p>If such creatures existed today, it would be an unforgivable act of racism and hatred to suggest that they were a “primitive ancestor” of Humans.</p>
<p>But, since they’d all dead, it’s all cool.</p>
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<p>Well, as far as that goes, I’d be in the first group as well. Evolution is compatible with God, though obviously if I were convinced that it were true I would interpret Genesis differently.</p>
<p>I disbelieve evolution not because of my religion, but because I do not feel that the evidence is in its favor.</p>
<p>Almost ever “old, 4th world…” place on Earth believes in a God. Is there a reason for that?</p>
<p>Instead of trying to attack beliefs using limited logic, try perceiving them through common sense.</p>
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<p>It’s easy for someone to be impossible to disagree with when they get to write the book. That said, I’m not arguing against Dawkins here, but against Atheism. And I have experienced the points of Atheists. Just here on this site I’ve experienced about 2000 pages of them…</p>
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<p>If your opinions of creationism are based on the writings of a Holocaust denier who believes that evolution AND intelligent design are both Masonic plots, and who believes that Zionism AND anti-semitism are both also caused by the Masons, then I’m not surprised you have a low opinion of it.</p>
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<p>Yes, there is. All humans either evolved with the same psychological tendencies, or they inherited legends of the same events, depending on who you ask.</p>
<p>But this doesn’t really help answer our question.</p>
<p>Still, you can’t assume logic is correct. Because logic is made from human observations.</p>
<p>And if the Theory of Atoms is real, then Logic would be like this.</p>
<p>IF (Atom 3244535, 32523532, 5345534534) Gain Electron{
Precise Predesigned event happens…
}</p>
<p>It basically means if 3 specific atoms gain an electron, at a specific location and point of time, it will do something, not random, but predesigned based on all the variables because thats how the world works. Its not a simple variable “thing”.</p>
<p>So every time someone does something, it will cause another person to change or do something else. Because we are all atoms, and atoms control our brain, and atoms are part of this universe(so told).</p>
<p>So if I drop a bomb in Texas, could it perhaps boost the IQs of 500 men in California by 75%?</p>
<p>We don’t know because NOBODY understands the Theory of Atoms to this level, only its logic. </p>
<p>So stop asking “Oh is GOD real or fake”. Because we can’t answer that question at all yet.</p>
<p>Logic can’t solve our problems, we need something, much much deeper than that.</p>
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<p>It’s well documented in the other thread that I have responded to every objection to my statements by either clarifying or modifying them. If I have missed any, then feel free to repeat them.</p>
<p>I’m not trying to be unreasonable. I want to hear any objections to my beliefs, so I can ensure that people are not misunderstanding them and that I am not missing any flaws in them. But there’s nothing I can do when someone just says “you have made false statements” or “your arguments are based on ignorance” without giving details.</p>
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Well, philosophically I agree to some extent, but pragmatically speaking, what would be the point of saying anything about anything if we assume that human observation and reasoning are not good enough to make valid assessments?</p>
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<p>Well, if anyone seriously holds those beliefs, I would be happy to hear their reasons, and lay out the counter evidence.</p>
<p>Even just from my personal experience, I have been halfway around the world by plane. If the earth is flat, there would have been major difficulties with that flight.</p>
<p>Actually, the deathblow to Flat Earth (unless they give it a major upgrade) it is that it is now possible for anyone to send a camera up into near-space with a weather balloon, and return nice photos of the curved earth.</p>
<p>Those cameras on the balloons were hacked by aliens who secretely work for Barack Hussein Obama, a secret Muslim terrorist who reports directly to Osama Bin Laden, a known associate of the Dread Witch Christine O’Donnell.</p>
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<p>Yes, but most (if not all) don’t study their religion enough.</p>
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<p>Certainly it is possible for faulty reasoning to reach any conclusion from any source. But on close examination the Bible is usually quite clear, or else quite clearly vague (ie no unequivocal conclusions on that subject can be justified).</p>
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<p>And in all of these cases, claims in either direction are highly spurious. The Bible is a historical and theological text, not a scientific one. When it addresses science at all, it is usually with the assumption that the reader already understands it.</p>
<p>If part of the Bible said “In the beginning God created the universe with 30% Hydrogen, 40% Helium, and an Ideal Gas Constant of 7 J K/1 mol/1” or “Then an earthquake of Richter scale 6.5 caused the 10’ think sandstone walls on Jericho to collapse” then those would be statements of a scientific nature which, if contradicted by research, would require the rejection of either the Bible or the research.</p>
<p>As to the Bible verse you listed:</p>
<p>Adultery, homosexual acts, sabbath breaking, and idol worship:</p>
<p>Yes, in Israel under the Law God’s moral code was enforced directly by the authorities. With the New Testament, Christianity is no longer an earthly nation, but a spiritual one, and as such there is no longer any justification for such actions.</p>