<p>em--S#1 is a NMF "merit whore," with a choice of full ride offers- -Not even applying for need-based aid. Didn't even fill out the FAFSA, don't know what EFC is. . .So definitely not playing the "large family card" to get aid. It's merit all the way and couldn't be happier. That's one down, and 6 to go. (Btw, we ate mac and cheese last night. . .and don't you know--all the smart people shop at Value Village--the coolest store in town).</p>
<p>This is all very interesting to me as I'm on my first child and know so little ... for example, you all seem to know which schools are good with merit aid and which schools don't give any. I always was under the impression that the Catholic ones (Notre Dame, BC, etc...) only offer need-based but I'd love to learn who is generous with merit aid (too late for this kid, but maybe for the next...)</p>
<p>We fall into the category of "too much income to qualify for need-based aid; too little wealth to afford $45K a year for 3 kids" - as someone pointed out, that's ten straight years of college for us. I wish I knew who gives out merit aid because we could use it. And my kid has worked hard for it. Some kids are talented in athletics, some in arts, some in sciences; if they have worked hard to do well, they should all be rewarded and acknowledged regardless of their parents' income. If the child is the right fit for the school, the child will contribute to the school and the school should want to encourage him/her to come. Our future as a country, as a world, depends upon our children.</p>
<p>What I don't understand is why we are having this debate at all - why should any child be denied what is right for them in favor of someone else? No, it is not easy being poor, but neither is it easy making sure you are NOT poor. We have worked very hard to make a good life for our family, sacrificing where we had to and indulging when we could. But when I recently read how college is automatically free to anyone earning under $60,000 a year, I wondered whether it wouldn't have been easier to aim for a low income rather than a high one. In the end, after we are done with 10 straight years of college, our hard work over the years might amount to the same savings level we would have had if we hadn't tried to constantly raise our standard of living. Is that what we want people to aspire to? My parents were immigrants who subscribed to the American dream of "work as hard as you can and better yourself so you can make a better world for your children and then they for their children after that." There was an implicit understanding that everyone else would try to do the same.</p>
<p>Colleges and universities should help make it possible for everyone to attend whichever institutions they qualify for and wish to attend. There should not be any discrimination, forward or reverse, in any area: race, gender, financial background. We should all want all of our children to get a fair chance. My child has repeatedly asked me, "I don't understand; if we can't afford the tuition, why do they say we can?" Good question. I can't answer it.</p>
<p>love:</p>
<p>I'l answer it....the fafsa and the css looks at income and assets. As for Harvard being free...do you honestly think that many low-income kids can make it into the college without the benefits that more affuent kids have?</p>
<p>It's not about whether parents work hard or not (since those who have lower paying jobs can also be working hard). It's about paying a portion or all of the college cost in proportion to income level and assets owned. People often mistake arguments against a move towards merit-aid as an arguement against hard work. That is not the case. </p>
<p>The problem is that merit-aid is given disproportionately to affluent households, while need-based aid goes to those who might not otherwise be able to attend college without assistance, given particular federal and state guidelines. Wealthy kids can go to college even if they end up at a state school, while low-income kids need help even going to state universities or community collleges.</p>
<p>It's about paying a percentage of college cost that is in line with income and assets. Just because an affluent person does not want to pay what their EFC says they can afford, doesn't mean that need-kids benefit, as they too need to generally meet their EFC. Ignoring that there would be no access in one case (the latter), or recieving a state school education (in the former) because of cost still benefits the affluent.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments IsleBoy, but I'm not sure you really answered the question. Your comment
"Just because an affluent person does not want to pay what their EFC says they can afford..."<br>
implies that you believe people with higher incomes can pay what the EFC is, but they just don't want to. I know many people who are shocked at what their EFC is calculated at and wonder how they are supposed to meet that and still feed the children left at home. But provided they can keep the younger ones clothed and fed, maybe by the time their turn comes their EFC will be 0. </p>
<p>My point really is that discrimination isn't good in any direction. I grew up when college was free at many institutions. Can you imagine? And yet it was still a luxury people couldn't afford because they needed to go to work. Now it has become the biggest "luxury" there is, and I worry about our future if there is even one mind that misses out on the opportunity for an education that eventually could have resulted in our world being improved upon. </p>
<p>That being said, it all works out for the best and people can find education anywhere if they are willing to look for it. And for the record, the benefits that my non low-income kids (I hesitate to use the word "affluent") have include a loving family, nutritious food and a safe place to sleep every night, not tutors and personal trainers. While I realize that even those simple things can elude our poverty-stricken children, please do not assume that all non-need, merit-aid receiving students have come from a life of private ponies and parties.</p>
<p>How is it any easier for a family with a $15,000 EFC who make before taxes $60,000 than it is for a family who have double the EFC but double the income?
Assuming that there is a minimum income required to feed and house our families safely- doesn't it make sense that a lower income family is going to have less left over after those minimum standards are met?</p>
<p>You're right, emeraldkity which is why I am in favor of need-based aid. It is absolutely essential to make sure that all children can receive the quality of education they deserve.</p>
<p>I am more concerned that all children recieve the quality of education K-12 that they "deserve" , frankly than I am concerned that children who do not qualify for need based aid for college recieve merit aid.
But I am not against merit aid for those schools who find it a useful tool for their student populations.</p>
<p>The national high school graduation rate is only 68 percent
Historically disadvantaged students have only a 50/50 chance of graduating with a high school diploma
8% fewer males graduate high school than do females regardless of race or income
Considering that a high school diploma will not get you a living wage in many areas, the drop out rate is a travesty for a country with an "education " president</p>
<p>Agreed. And quality of education K-12 begins with quality educators working hand-in-hand with involved parents... which sort of creates a Catch-22 that goes back to producing both of those first. I want to see the focus return to education as a priority, the way it used to be before we started as a country coveting batting averages and hit songs. Teachers used to be our children's role models, not among our nation's lowest paid and/or respected citizens. It all starts with education. We need to all support each other to advance as a country. Let's stop the who's more worthy thing - we all need each other.</p>
<p>love:</p>
<p>I do not make the assumption that all affluent families are in the same boat. Size of family, assests and income are considered in EFC determination.</p>
<p>The sift to merit-based aid and way from need-based aid (as per fafsa) disproptionately affects the neediest students, and benefits those who have already had a leg up so to speak. BTW, I do not qualify for need-based aid, but the principle of all being educated is more important than whether I or my affluent peers get merit-aid. There is more choice when you are affluent, than when you are not.</p>
<p>Merit-aid, while commendable, is less preferable as an aid policy to a need-based one...since the methodology used to calculate the EFC is somewhat the same, no matter a persons income bracket. That's as fair as it's going to get.</p>
<p>IB.</p>
<p>Isleboy writes:
"Merit-aid, while commendable, is less preferable as an aid policy to a need-based one...since the methodology used to calculate the EFC is somewhat the same, no matter a persons income bracket. That's as fair as it's going to get."</p>
<p>The below post was copied/pasted from another thread. The student posts that her EFC is pretty low. WHY is it low? Because her non-custodial dad's income is not being counted at all!!!! Frankly, if a non-custodial dad has active visitation and an income, his income should be counted. Many intact families (such as our own) are annoyed that divorced families get away with this. I can understand if the noncustodial parent is AWOL, but if the parent is an "involved parent" then his/her income should count, too. And since 50% of marriages end in divorce, we are talking about a lot of kids that are falsely benefitting from this silly rule.</p>
<p>You may argue that the dad is paying 50% of her (phony) EFC but what we don't know is that his income may be so high that his EFC (his income alone - all by itself) may be 2 or 3 times as high as her total low EFC.</p>
<p>Post from another thread: "2. Money. I have a pretty low EFC because my schools are all FAFSA based. Thus my dad's income isn't taken into consideration though it'll be a 50-50 split for each parent."</p>
<p>Actually, she would be required to share her fathers income, unless she is intent on misleading the aid office, at the schools that only require both the CSS and FAFSA. That is why many private colleges use the CSS or their own form. With the CSS, even if the parent is non-cutodial, they will have to contribute.</p>
<p>Now, if she only applied to state schools and the few private ones that don't use the CSS, then I can see her having a lower EFC, as only the coustodial parent is required to share that information.</p>
<p>Most of the CCer's are looking at colleges that do often require the CSS or their own form.</p>
<p>So it's relatively fair, unless the plan is to only go to a public school.</p>
<p>Isleboy:</p>
<p>If you noticed her quote -- all her schools are FAFSA based. She didn't have to mislead ANYONE -- the system allowed her "non-custodial dad" to not report his income.</p>
<p>I would NOT say that most CC'ers are looking at schools that use the CCS form too. Many CC'ers are looking at state schools -- especially the ones who need merit because state schools are more likely to give bigger merit awards.</p>
<p>I agree completely. We were shocked out of our socks when we learned what our EFC was determined to be--basically we were deemed capable of affording full tuition to the most expensive colleges in America. Excuse me? I don't know how they calculated this, but our family would have to sell our home, empty our retirement accounts, and panhandle on street corners in order to achieve this amazing and magical financial feat. So, our daughter is not able to go to those schools that give mostly need-based aid, but will, instead, go to a lower-tier school that is more generous with the much-maligned "merit" aid. Believe me, I'd LOVE to be in a position to afford full tuition at any school in the country, but we flat-out aren't. ... Last week I talked to a soccer coach from a very selective school that my daughter had
applied to. She was accepted, but received no need-based or merit aid (the school gives virtually no merit money). I told the coach that because of that, we regretfully had to pass on his school. He was quite dismayed, and said that he'd had this conversation more than a few times with other families. He also noted that his amazing, "elite" school makes a big deal out of its "diverse" student population, but apparently defines "diversity" in cultural and ethnic terms only. Economically, the school has plenty of kids from affluent families and plenty of kids from lower income families, but precious few from middle class families. So much for economic diversity.</p>
<p>So it's about public schools that use only the FAFSA. So, if you have a problem with how the FAFSA treats non-custodial parents, I would ask questions about that issue, rather than encourage movement towards merit-aid, which does benefit affluent homes disproportionately.</p>
<p>By saying that merit-aid does not or will not affect need-based programs at schools that do not guarentee to meet need, is untrue. All colleges have a limited dollar amount to "spend" on people who qualify for aid. With merit-aid, the money affects the needy to the benefit of those who "theorhetically" can pay for school based on the federal methodology.</p>
<p>Private schools which use the CSS or their private forms instead of just the FAFSA usually have the non-custodial parent give them income information. Thus, the private school EFC is sometimes different than what FAFSA states the EFC would be. CSS sometimes includes in its calculations for aid: what kind of cars are owned, and expect parents to contribute to a kids education sometimes until 30 years of age, for instance. The FAFSA does not. The CSS or institutional form is often more thurough, and most colleges that guarentee to meet need use it. So, it is possible to say that low-income students could see their EFC (institional) rise versus the federal EFC.</p>
<p>So, the arguement that it is somehow unfair to middle class students is perhaps dependent on the parameters of the arguement. You could argue that low-income kids need to apply to schools that guarentee to meet need, but also have more of their income used to raise their EFC (institutional) instead of keeping the EFC (federal) lower. Since most state schoold do not guarentee to meet need, needy-students would also be shut out like many others.</p>
<p>IB.</p>
<p>Economically, the school has plenty of kids from affluent families and plenty of kids from lower income families, but precious few from middle class families. So much for economic diversity.</p>
<p>what counts as low-middle- or high income?
We are middle income- our income is above the $45,000 or so that is the current median income- we still have an EFC that is less than the cost of the school & the school meets 100% of EFC
Even if our income was twice as high & our EFC was twice as much, it still be would less than the yearly cost of school
so what are you calling middle income that isn't being represented?</p>
<p>"Theoretically" is the key word here. ... I would never for a minute want to see a bright, lower-income student denied need-based aid. Nor would I care to see a bright, middle-income student denied access to a particular school simply because his/her family "theoretically" is believed capable of paying full tuition, when, in fact, they cannot. I suspect that many middle-income families need financial aid for college--obviously, in lower $$ amounts than do lower income families. But the need is still there. Although "theoretically" it is not. I don't know what the answer is, since there are limited financial aid funds to go around.</p>
<p>Depends on what you classify middle-income as, like emeraldkity4 pointed out.</p>
<p>The theoretical is what the federal and institutional EFC baselines are. If you have no guidelines, there would be no principle behind aid awards.</p>
<p>Again, how are income levels defined is what most people have avoided defining, especially in this thread. Why? I suspect because those who have posted tend, like the rest of CC, to be upper-middle to upper-class with respect to income.</p>
<p>So, the question is what would you define as middle-income?</p>
<p>IB</p>
<p>what counts as low-middle- or high income?
We are middle income- our income is above the $45,000 or so that is the current median income- we still have an EFC that is less than the cost of the school & the school meets 100% of EFC
Even if our income was twice as high & our EFC was twice as much, it still be would less than the yearly cost of school
so what are you calling middle income that isn't being represented?</p>
<p>Tell me how a family making $100,000 a year--which sounds like a terrific income--can afford $40,000 or more annually for college? Even with college savings in the bank. True, that family could re-mortgage their home, or take out huge loans, or forget about elite LACs and simply send their kids to state colleges--all options under serious consideration by our family. The cost of private schools has escalated so dramatically over the years, far beyond the growth of most family incomes, as to make it almost impossible to consider them. So, even those with seemingly good incomes can find it a tough road to go.</p>
<p>so to answer the question- are you saying that $100,000 is middle income?</p>
<p>We refinanced our home to be able to afford our EFC- my daughter also has taken out loans- has earned an education stipend and earns money through the school year and summers to pay expenses.</p>
<p>If a family chooses not to pay EFC¬ look at schools that only offer need based aid- there are certainly a lot of other options as you have found & a family who makes more than double national average income is in a position to take advantage of other options</p>
<p>several threads discussing excellent schools that offer merit aid
students whose families make double the national average income are likely to have had opportunities that less financially fortunate families have not- and those opportunities may make them an excellent candidate for merit aid
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=143944%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=143944</a></p>
<p>100,000 is definately better than the mean income of about $43,000. So middle class is that high?</p>
<p>The majority of Americans make less than $100,000. Amazing what is considered middle income?!</p>
<p>BTW way, Sybbie has a great post about the FAFSA versus CSS. Which would further the arguement about what happens when low-income kids apply to colleges that guarentee need. Just read between the lines:</p>
<p>The FAFSA is requested by all schools and is mainly used by schools that calculate FA using the federal methodology.</p>
<p>The schools that require the CSS profile often distribute their own institutional funds and use an institutional/ concensus methodolody. The Profile is used to get a more complete picture of your financial situation.</p>
<p>Differences between the IM and FM models include:</p>
<p>IM collects information on estimated academic year family income, medical expenses, elementary and secondary school tuition and unusual circumstances. FM omits these questions.</p>
<p>IM considers a fuller range of family asset information, while FM ignores assets of siblings, all assets of certain families with less than $50,000 of income, and both home and family farm equity.</p>
<p>FM defines income as the adjusted gross income on federal tax returns, plus various categories of untaxed income. IM includes in total income any paper depreciation, business, rental or capital losses which artificially reduce adjusted gross income.</p>
<p>FM does not assume a minimum student contribution to education; IM expects the student, as primary beneficiary of the education, to devote some time each year to earning money to pay for education.</p>
<p>FM ignores the noncustodial parent in cases of divorce or separation; IM expects parents to help pay for education, regardless of current marital status.</p>
<p>FM and IM apply different percentages to adjust the parental contribution when multiple siblings are simultaneously enrolled in college, and IM considers only siblings enrolled in undergraduate programs.</p>
<p>The IM expected family share represents a best estimate of a familys capacity (relative to other families) to absorb, over time, the costs of education. It is not an assessment of cash on hand, a value judgment about how much a family should be able to use current income, or a measure of liquidity. The final determinations of demonstrated need and awards rest with the University and are based upon a uniform and consistent treatment of family circumstances.</p>
<p>Except in the most extraordinary circumstances, Colleges classifies incoming students as dependent upon parents for institutional aid purposes, even though some students may meet the federal definition of independence.</p>
<p>Students enrolling as dependent students are considered dependent throughout their undergraduate years when need for institutional scholarships is determined.</p>
<p>For institutional aid purposes a student may not declare independence due to attainment of legal age, internal family arrangements, marriage or family disagreements.</p>
<p>Your COA (cost of attendance) is tuition, room board, books travel expenses and some misc. expenses associated with attending college.</p>
<p>Thanks Sybbie for the info. And thank you emeraldkity for being the voice of reason as well. :)</p>
<p>IB</p>