That’s not exactly true either. My daughter was recruited by D1 schools but chose D2. My niece and nephew were recruited by D1 schools but went to D1 schools that didn’t have their sport, so didn’t play. Many many high school athletes choose not to continue and it isn’t because they aren’t good enough to play D1.
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And they discover this in a, as you describe it, very low stress high school (and these are usually the high schools where these kids are sent), during an exchange year where they can do whatever they like as far as sports and music are concerned and whatever they do there, just as the academic classes they take, has no bearing whatsoever on their college admissions chances on their home countries. Where they are of a completely different demographic and are required to act very differently to how they act in their US schools.
My nephew and niece, as exchange students, were superstars in their small town/rural high schools. One didn’t offer any AP classes or similar at all, the other wouldn’t let exchange students near them. The kids they hung out with were, at their most ambitious, planning to apply to the respective local flagship. Of course they loved the break, before knuckling down to get ready for their own college admissions exams, at a much higher level than the “college bound” classes they took, at best, at their US a schools. They never had a chance to compare apples with apples.
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You’re correct that 2% number is a bit misleading…a lot of HS athletes never attend college, let alone D1 schools. Using the same scale for numbers, it’s likely that there are 10%-20% of all varsity athletes that could play D1 sports.
What’s spot on in @beebee3 comment is that Harvard doesn’t want kids who can just “play” at the D1 level, they want kids who can perform at an Olympic level.
In team sports, you find very few kids who want to be professional in team sports who will go Ivy. If Alabama and Yale offer you a spot on the football team…nearly all go to Alabama. A local example is Mo Bamba. He was a great student who also happened to be 7 feet (with a 7’9" wingspan) and ranked as a top 10 BB recruit out of High School. He could have gone to Harvard…or Duke…but he selected Texas. he knew he’d be there 1 year. He was, and has been in the NBA for a few years now.
If you swim, or row, or fence…you’d better be world class if you want to play at Harvard (or Stanford…or a few others).
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A while back Critics of Oxbridge were pushing to make its admissions system more like that in the gUS. Studies have shown that working class kids have a hard time getting in because they often do poorly in the interview. A posh accent is incredibly helpful in getting a place. Poor grammar leads to your elimination. I have attended two different graduate programs In the US. One was elite; One was not. In both there were a few people whose spoken English was abysmal. They were smart people who grew up in working class conditions. Often, they had commuted to colleges attended mostly by other working class kids. They continued to use phrases such as “he don’t” or “she axed me.”
There is private tutoring for A levels in the UK. It is not uncommon to take a full year to study in a so-called cram course.This is another advantage that wealthier people have over poor ones. My understanding is that it is much more difficult to prepare for A levels then it is to do so for the ACT or SAT.
In addition, in recent years Oxbridge has had a real incentive to enroll many international students who pay higher fees than UK students do.
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You write this as if it’s a bad thing. Having a more laid back high school experience isn’t necessarily bad - it sounds like it makes for a much more stress free life which, to me, is a good thing. Perhaps if the outcomes vastly differed in their adulthood greater stress would be worth it, but the exchange students I’ve kept in touch with into adulthood end up in the same types of jobs as their peers here. I’ve seen no difference whatsoever.
Ironically in today’s local paper they interviewed 4 exchange students here for this past school year (during Covid) coming from the Netherlands, Germany, France, and Italy. 2 were from my high school and 2 from a neighboring one. Their comments of pros and cons match what I’ve heard many times before:
“I really don’t want to go back home, I want to stay here.” (Germany)
“Teachers here encourage more group work so students can lean on their peers to solve problems… the system here is much easier than learning facts and taking a test.” (attributed to all)
“It’s so early, school here, I had to wake up at 6 in the morning, I am not used to that.” (Netherlands)
“I appreciated being able to choose some classes, which is not an option in France.”
“All four students were most excited about being able to experience classes centered around the arts… 'They were my favorite classes, I would take them again if I could.” (Germany)
“The group agreed the lack of personal independence in America was challenging. ‘I needed my host family and friends wherever I went’ (Netherlands) said. ‘Back home I just grab my bike and go.’ There’s no curfew in their home country.” (Italy, Germany)
All talked about how virus restrictions were worse in their home countries so they were happy to be here and do things.
“Except for (Germany) the Covid vaccine is not available to juveniles in the students’ home countries. They all received the vaccine here.”
But still… I guess if one feels a stressful high school education is important for whatever reason, then go that route. I’ve seen a lot of success from the less stress route personally, so chose that for my own guys. Like many who have gone their path before, they’ve become successful in their own respective fields too, from finance, to permaculture farming, to at or near the top of his med school and entering residency.
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Wouldn’t that also affect US elite college admissions that include interviews?
Yes, speaking an American English dialect that is significantly different from that of upper / upper-middle class American English dialects can be an impediment in many situations where one is being judged (even if not explicitly) in a speaking situation where upper / upper-middle class American English dialects are expected (interviews for university or upper / upper-middle class jobs, spoken interaction at university or on the upper / upper-middle class job, etc.).
How would international students from non-English speaking countries get into Oxbridge? Is that why they major mostly in STEM? An interview that is focused primarily on technical subject matters may not be as detrimental to a non-native speaker.
I agree with you that wealthier people will always have an advantage. The question is which system is less impacted by that advantage.
That was not my kid’s experience with Oxford interviews last year at all. It isn’t really an interview, more of an oral examination, and the tutors were quite upfront about distinguishing those most bright from those merely most prepared. Those selected did not have elite backgrounds.
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Perhaps things have changed in the last few years…though I doubt it. I think we may also be talking about 2 different groups. I did not say everyone at Oxbridge came from an “elite” background. I said that it was hard for working class kids to gain admission. Here is an article that backs me up.
I don’t seem to be able to get the reply button to function correctly. I am trying to respond to roycroftmom.
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Maybe, but over 63% come from state schools, which is not far off from the percentage at highly selective American schools.
And Oxbridge are public --in the American sense–directly taxpayer supported schools. Although HYPSMC receive a lot federal funding, they are still PRIVATE, not public schools.
As a parent of kid in a rural Pennsylvania school district, this site has been very enlightening and at the same time almost discouraging. Our high school has 500 students and we are lucky to have one guidance counselor for the entire building. Most of the GC’s time is spent on schedules, emotional/mental well-being and discipline. Our students are completely on their own figuring out post high school options. Most students will stay local (Penn State, Juniata, St Francis or Lock Haven). What is unfortunate is that there is no help whatsoever for the few high achieving students. I’ve learned so much from reading this forum that has helped me help my daughter and her siblings in choosing schools. Many of you don’t realize how lucky your children are. We have no AP classes, one foreign language option (that you are lucky if you can fit in your schedule), very little in the way of advanced math or science and limited extra curricular activities. I read the “chance me” posts where students to have 8-10 AP classes, have taken calculus by their sophomore year, have exposure to orchestra and arts programs and I wonder how my child will ever compete.
I guess my point is that I hope admissions officers can pick out students with potential that don’t have all the same opportunities. For us, losing SAT scores is disappointing, as it was one of the few pieces that helped equalize those differences. One thing we also noticed in our rural school was the lack of focus on writing. My daughter had absolutely no teacher support to work with her on her college essays. She was completely on her own. This was a huge disadvantage and I wish I had understood more of what was needed in them before she applied to college last fall. It may have made a difference between a deferred enrollment offer and an actual enrollment to CWRU. My point is that most of our rural schools are just trying to survive and get students basic education. Everyone on here has such an advantage that they don’t even realize it. I’m not saying that this is a bad thing, it’s just reality. Our academic system has at least 3 tiers and most of us will never have access to the top tier that can get students into these high end colleges.
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I was just going to say that you could substitute “Ivy” for “Oxbridge” and “Midwest” for “Northern England” and the article would be indistinguishable from an article you would read about American college admissions.
Perhaps these issues are universal and have nothing to do with how an elite college chooses to run its admissions?
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Many Americans have the idea that the admissions process for top US colleges is unfair and should be replaced by what they see as the ideal system used by Oxbridge. Many people in the UK think their system is unfair and should be “Americanized.”
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People who think they would get in if their admissions process were changed are the ones who likely support change.
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The grass only looks greener on the other side of the ocean until you live there…
Much of the unfairness is due to unfairness in the preparation process (including, but not limited to, primary and secondary education), as opposed to the university admission criteria and process (which can have its own unfairness, but is also heavily affected by and sometimes tries to deal with the unfairness coming in).
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Stats from my son’s Oxford college on this year’s admissions cycle. Colleges vary, but some are making significant effort on the access front.
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There’s widespread revulsion in the UK at the US notions of racial, athletic or legacy preferences. Academic merit is still seen as the only way to select students and on that measure the US is clearly much less fair than the UK. Widening access in the UK means encouraging more students to apply and working to identify and admit those who are talented but have been disadvantaged by their schools.
Where people in the UK look with envy at the US is the idea of free college for talented poor students (and poor by US standards means most of the UK population), whereas everyone in the UK has a loan for tuition fees of about $40K for a 3 year degree (and potentially more once living expenses are added). What is underappreciated is quite how hard it is to get into meets need US schools, because you only hear about the success stories on the news.
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Thanks for this data; it was interesting. I think that to the extent Oxbridge makes such efforts–and I agree they should–it IS “Americanizing” admissions and moving away from the “pure” admssions approach that many criticis of HYPS admissions have admired.
There’s widespread revulsion at these preferences here in the US as well, perhaps not quite as much on these forums.
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