My kid managed to obtain admission to both Oxford and several HYPSM, so it really isn’t a quest to improve her chances, merely acknowledging her personal perspective that the process was more clear and predictable in the UK.
Most the US population is also “poor” when it comes to funding their kids’ college costs (i.e. dependent on financial aid and/or scholarships, and/or commuting to a nearby state-subsidized community college or regional state university).
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True, but there is more gradation in prices in the US so a lower ranking state college will generally be cheaper than a flagship or a private four year college. In the UK you pay the same whether you go to university at Oxford or Huddersfield.
That comes down to the argument about whether it is better to have the same “low” price for everyone (UK university tuition (not including costs for living or commuting) costs £9,250 per year, or about $12,900 per year at current exchange rates, so within the range of in-state public university list price tuitions in the US) versus a high list price that is often heavily discounted (through financial aid and/or scholarships, sometimes to significantly lower than the typical range of in-state public university costs). The former is more favorable to most high SES families, while the latter is more favorable to some low SES families whose students are strong enough to get into colleges with good financial aid, or those with students who earn very large scholarships. However, many low SES families are likely to have difficulty affording their kids’ college under either the UK or (many states in the) US system of college costs.
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Same perspective from my son. He knew that if he was accepted at Oxford it was on his on ability, not because of legacy/sports/donations. He also knew that if he didn’t get in, it was because he fell short somewhere in the process, not because his parent gave less to X than the other legacies who applied from his HS.
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The other effect of “same price for all universities” or “price is known beforehand” is that, if the student and family can afford the cost of university at all, the different prices have much less effect on university choice, other than the lower cost of “able to commute from home” universities versus “must be a residential student” universities. In contrast, many choices between different universities in the US are highly dependent on costs (consider all those threads like “is attending university A at $X+$20,000 per year worth it over university B at $X per year?”), and the net costs after financial aid and scholarships are not known before applying to universities.
I agree with this. Test-optional reinforces privilege by putting more emphasis on factors that favor wealthy students: Quality letters of recommendation from teachers with a small number of students per class, favored sports such as fencing, crew, or squash, and costly summer programs that help students develop writing, math, or science skills.
In contrast, an SAT score of 1500+ conveys a great deal of information if the student comes from a school where the school average is 1000 or below and where extracurriculars are limited. Couple that with strong grades and you have a student that could likely succeed anywhere. But without that test score, will likely go unnoticed.
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You are correct about letters if recommendation to. What we found is that most teachers in our district don’t even know how to write a strong letter. Coupled with that is the fact that our science teachers don’t necessarily care about the students. Higher paying districts have stolen the quality teachers we had. My daughter basically self-taught herself chemistry, calculus and physics this past year. How do you get a good science recommendation when your teachers have all moved on to other places?
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On the other hand, relative to HS GPA, SAT scores do favor higher SES applicants. Even the College Board says this: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED562878.pdf .
For super-selective colleges, test-optional probably matters little for opportunity to low SES applicants. SAT (or ACT) score, like HS GPA, function as eliminators for those who submit those not close to the ceilings. I.e. high SAT or HS GPA won’t help, but low ones will hurt. Among those with high SAT and HS GPA, the rest of the application (including aspects which correlate to SES) gets magnified in effect.
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Yes, but this is easily adjusted for by comparing the scores in the context of the school. A student scoring 1500 coming from a school where the average is 1000 has a far different meaning than a student scoring 1500 when the school average is 1300.
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That study appears to say that poorly performing high schools which often serve low SES students, still give a lot of As, but their students not only do badly in the SAT but also end up taking more remedial courses in college and fewer challenging quantitative courses.
The most natural reading of that study is as a condemnation of the high school education provided to students in low SES areas. But that’s why as @hebegebe noted, the rare student who does well in the SAT despite all these barriers can much more easily stand out than simply having a decent GPA in a school that doesn’t offer many challenging courses.
Colleges knew how to adjust for that: for example the UCs looked for lower SAT scores in the Central Valley than in the Bay Area. That was the equivalent of contextual offers in the UK system. Now sadly one opportunity for those smart kids to stand out is lost.
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Test optional favoring wealthy kids over lower income kids on average seems to be a popular theory on the forum, but I have yet to see any evidence of it actually occurring. Almost without exception, test optional admits to selective colleges average lower income than test submitter admits to selective colleges. For example, the report at www.nacacnet,.org/globalassets/documents/publications/research/defining-access-report-2018.pdf looks at income distribution of test submitter and non-submitter kids at 21 test optional colleges. At all 21 of them, the average EFC for test optional attending students was lower than test submitters. The lower income kids seem relatively more likely to be admitted test optional than via submitting scores.
Regarding the specific non-stat holistic application components, one can roughly influence the relative impact of wealth related factors in different application criteria by looking at the regression analysis in the Harvard lawsuit. I’ll use the combination of SES disadvantaged + First Gen + Application Fee Waiver as a proxy for low income. And I’ll use the combination of Double Legacy + Applies REA as a proxy for high income. Other controls are defaults, which include male + White + no other hooks besides the listed. The regression coefficients were as follows. Results are at the bottom of the post.
By far the largest difference in ratings between estimated low and high income occurred in the academic rating. Nothing else came close, and the bulk of that difference seems to relate to scores. I realize that this may primarily relates to other factors besides income. More relevant may be that estimated lower income kids averaged similar or higher ratings to default reference (applies RD, White, male, no markers of low or high income) in all areas except academic/scores. The smallest difference between estimated low and high income occurred in teacher LORs. After controlling for similar stats, estimated lower income kids averaged better LOR ratings than estimated higher income kids.
Academic Rating – Academic Rating appears to be well corelated with the income proxy. This correlation seems to primarily relate to income being correlated with test scores, rather than grades.
Only Demographics: Low Income = -0.78, High Income = +0.60 (Delta = 1.38)
Demographics + Stats; Low Income =-0.06, High Income = +0.32 (Delta = 0.38)
EC Rating – Estimated higher income kids averaged a better income rating, but a much weaker correlation than occurred for stats. After controlling for stats, both low and high income kids average a similar EC rating.
Only Demographics: Low Income = +0.11, High Income = +0.57 (Delta = 0.68)
Demographics + Stats; Low Income = +0.34, High Income = +0.38 (Delta = 0.04)
Teacher LOR #1 Rating – Estimated higher income kids averaged a better LOR ratings, but a much weaker correlation than occurred for stats. After controlling for stats, lower income kids seem to average slightly higher LOR ratings than high income kids.
Only Demographics: Low Income = +0.26, High Income = +0.60 (Delta = 0.34)
Demographics + Stats; Low Income = +0.54, High Income = +0.47 (Delta = -0.07)
Personal Rating – Estimated higher income kids average a better personal rating, but a weaker correlation than occurred for stats. This income difference persists after controlling for stats.
Only Demographics: Low Income = +0.58, High Income = +1.18 (Delta = 0.60)
Demographics + Stats; Low Income = +0.83, High Income = +1.10 (Delta = 0.26)
Interview Rating – Estimated higher income kids average a significantly better interview rating than low income kids, but not as large a difference as with stats. The bulk of this difference between income levels goes away after controlling for stats.
Only Demographics: Low Income = -0.06, High Income = +0.66 (Delta = 0.72)
Demographics + Stats; Low Income = +0.36, High Income = +0.51 (Delta = 0.15)
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aheltzel,
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I can relate as I grew up in rural Pennsylvania. Did your daughter accept her deferred offer to CWRU? That is a great school and is not easy to get into. So, it sounds like you and your daughter made the very best of your opportunities, which in the end, is what we are all trying to do.
Best of luck to your daughter, I am sure that she will excel in college.
Are you close enough to use your local cc for classes? Our school allows this. Also on a recent trip I heard an advertisement from Mansfield that they are allowing/encouraging high school students to sign up for DE classes there. Chances are, if they’re doing it, all of the 14 state schools are doing it, but I haven’t been to our school to ask guidance. If it’s like cc, the cost should be less for high school students.
The next county over from us has a private college offering classes to students within the county at a low rate.
I consider it very positive that our state might be starting to step up to actually help many students.
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Ultimately she is not going to accept the deferred enrollment offer because CWRU didn’t offer that until the end of May. At which point we had already committed and paid the deposit for Pitt. If they had given her that option before May 1, I believe she would have accepted it. Part of me believes that it would have been a better school for her because of the depth and breadth of the nutrition classes offered. But I also recognize that after all the uncertainties of this year, she needed to know where she was going in the fall and had by the end May was looking forward to Pitt. I realize that colleges got caught unprepared for the number of deferrals and number of applications this year, but I wish Case had not waited so long to offer different options.
Our school does offer dual enrollment classes. They are basically a joke with very little rigor. My daughter has 33 credits that we paid for. Some we can use, most we won’t. For example, our school pushes students to take 3 different dual enrollment history classes. Mostly because it’s one of the few subjects we have a teacher who is certified to teach. We begged our district to let us pay for her to take online AP Spanish and they refused. She will be taking all her science classes over and we fear that she may be behind her peers. It will be interesting to see how she stacks up against other students at Pitt. I guess my point is that our district is an example of the level of quality of education that certain public schools have. Our school has to focus on getting students to pass the Passa tests with a basic score. They don’t have money to spend on high achieving students. I don’t know when that changed, but the spread between the best and the mediocre (not even the worst) public schools seems to be getting bigger. There are students all across rural America that are super talented but missing out because they don’t have anyone to help them. Just from what I have learned here, I know we made several mistakes with my d21, mostly from inexperience. Simple mistakes that if we had had a guidance counselor or even a resource that was more experienced, we wouldn’t have made. Maybe test optional will help lower income kids, but it’s all the “soft” resources that those kids are still missing out on, such as essay writing help or knowledge on how to best fill out the college application in order to stand out. My daughter was way too humble and we took that part for granted (should have really emphasized the 30 he per week of work in the family business) and didn’t do a very good job because we didn’t know any better.
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I meant DE at the college vs at the high school. Like you, I’m not fond of those taught at the high school (usually). Around us cc classes (at the cc) also aren’t always great, but a couple have been.
I’m curious where Niche ranks your high school (don’t need to be specific). Mine ranks between 200 and 250 in Best High Schools for our state. I thought in the past our state ranked them somewhere and there were only 500 districts, but I’m not finding that on Google now, so Niche will have to do for a comparison.
https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-school-districts/s/pennsylvania/
Our school wouldn’t allow students to take classes at an actual college. That would require them having to admit they might not be meeting all of the needs of the students. Even with a GIEP, we couldn’t convince them to even consider it. I can’t imagine we would be ranked very high. When 50-60% of our students are below poverty level, they are doing the best they can to bring everyone up to basic standard. It’s the few who Excell that get left behind. That is true in every rural school in our area. For example, this year there were only 5 students in the calculus class. That is out of the whole school. How do you a keep a teach certified to teach calc when they only have a class of 5-10 kids each year. Compare that to schools that have kids taking calc in 10th or 11th grade. That’s where people don’t realize what the disparity is between the best and worst schools. My daughter had to explain to admissions officers that she had taken every class she could at the school and that was why her senior year looked very weak. Plus she had to explain the reason behind taking agriculture classes at all. Thats why when I look at all those “chance me” posts, I’m floored at what some kids have accomplished.
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Same here, though our kids can take Calc in junior or senior year. We have nothing after it though and most who take it retake it in college to get a better foundation. It’s advice I give out regularly unless the college has a math placement test (many do) and the student tests out of it.
If you put your high school name in the search box at the top of that link it should show you where you’re ranked in the state - then post a range you’re in if you don’t mind. I’m curious how it compares across the state. We already know we’re (both) much lower than typical for cc posters.
Our school used to be almost exactly average, but we’ve improved some over the past decade as leadership changed. Having Keystones helped TBH. People complain about teaching to the test, but when the test is on solid information and what’s on it wasn’t being taught before, that’s not a bad thing. It means topics are getting covered that weren’t! It’s upped our game for Alg 1 and Bio. I’m only involved with math/science so don’t know about Lit.
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I am sorry your school system hasn’t been up to standards. I can’t find our current HS rankings, but in the past they seemed to lump the bottom 25-50 in one group and we were in that. I did find our current niche grade is a C- with a D in administration. Yup. I would agree with that! So, I understand your plight Somewhat.
But in VA, they’ve had some alternatives for rural/small schools for awhile. My Mom taught in a very wealthy, but tiny school district. They ran a satellite program for those classes that grouped together similar schools in the state. This was in the 1980s. My mom was in charge of running that program in addition to teaching and being the whole IT department for her school.
Nowadays they have Virtual Virginia classes to cover the AP classes that can’t be offered in the school. My kids took several of those. It may not be an ideal situation, but definitely better than the alternative. And during Covid, neither struggled with online classes. They had been there, done that.
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