<p>Do you think perhaps there is something to be gained from going to a large public high school? I'm not talking about simply the benefits of going to school period, but being around kids from all income levels, having bomb threats and lockdowns, experiencing the kinds of problems that kids without engaged parents have. I feel like, even though my school is not great in terms of academics, the exposure to different kinds of lifestyles is very very important.</p>
<p>An excellent case in favor of homeschooling is made by John Holt in his outstanding book, 'Teach Your Own.' This effectively makes the case that, rather than sacrificing socialization by homeschooling, socialization is actually the reason TO homeschool! (Now there's a radical thought!) I highly recommend this book; it is what turned my mind around.</p>
<p>Here is a summary of the key points covered by Mr. Holt:</p>
<p>See also:</p>
<p>No Thank You,
We Don't Believe in Socialization!
©2000 Lisa Russell
Used with Permission</p>
<p>I can't believe I am writing an article about socialization, The word makes my skin crawl. As homeschoolers, we are often accosted by people who assume that since we're homeschooling, our kids won't be "socialized." The word has become such a catch phrase that it has entirely lost any meaning.</p>
<p>The first time I heard the word, I was attending a Catholic day school as a first grader.</p>
<p>Having been a "reader" for almost 2 years, I found the phonics and reading lessons to be incredibly boring. Luckily the girl behind me felt the same way, and when we were done with our silly little worksheets, we would chat back and forth. I've never known two 6 yr. olds who could maintain a quiet conversation, so naturally a ruler-carrying nun interrupted us with a few strong raps on our desk. We were both asked to stay in at recess, and sit quietly in our desks for the entire 25 minutes, because "We are not here to socialize, young ladies."</p>
<p>Those words were repeated over and over throughout my education, by just about every teacher I've ever had. If we're not there to socialize, then why were we there? I learned to read at home. If I finished my work early (which I always did,) could I have gone home? If I were already familiar with the subject matter, would I have been excused from class that day? If schools weren't made for socializing, then why on earth would anyone assume that homeschoolers were missing out?</p>
<p>As a society full of people whose childhoods were spent waiting anxiously for recess time, and trying desperately to "socialize" with the kids in class; It is often difficult for people to have an image of a child whose social life is NOT based on school buddies. Do you ever remember sitting in class, and wanting desperately to speak to your friend? It's kind of hard to concentrate on the lessons when you're bouncing around trying not to talk. Have you ever had a teacher who rearranged the seats every now and then, to prevent talking, splitting up friends and "talking corners." Were you ever caught passing notes in class?</p>
<p>Now- flash forward to "real life." Imagine the following scenes:</p>
<p>Your Employer is auditing the Inter-Office Email system and comes across a personal note between you and a coworker. You are required to stand at the podium in the next sales meeting to read it aloud to your coworkers. The Police knock on your door, and announce that because you and your neighbor have gotten so close, they're separating you. You must move your home and your belongings to the other side of town, and you may only meet at public places on weekends.</p>
<p>You're sitting at a booth waiting for a coworker to arrive for a scheduled lunch date. Suddenly a member of upper management sits down across from you and demands your credit cards. When your friend arrives, you just order water and claim you're not hungry, since he stole your lunch money.</p>
<p>You're applying for a job and in an unconventional hiring practice, you are made to line up with other applicants, and wait patiently while representatives from two competing companies take their pick from the lineup.</p>
<p>You're taking your parents out for an anniversary dinner. After you find a table, a waiter tells you that seniors have a separate dining room, lest they "corrupt" the younger members of society.</p>
<p>You go to the grocery store only to find that since you are 32 years old you must shop at the store for 32 year olds. It's 8 miles away and they don't sell meat because the manager is a vegetarian, but your birthday is coming up and soon you'll be able to shop at the store for 33 yr. olds.</p>
<p>You'd like to learn about Aviation History. You go to the library and check out a book on the subject only to be given a list of "other subjects" that you must read about before you are permitted to check out the aviation book.</p>
<p>You're having a hard time finding what you need in the local department store. The saleslady explains that each item is arranged alphabetically in the store, so instead of having a section for shoes, you will find the men's shoes in between the maternity clothes and the mirrors.</p>
<p>Your Cable Company announces that anyone wishing to watch the Superbowl this year must log on a certain number of hours watching the Discovery Channel before they can be permitted to watch the game.</p>
<p>You apply for a job only to be told that this job is for 29 year olds. Since you're 32, you'll have to stay with your level.</p>
<p>In a group project, your boss decides to pair you up with the person you don't "click" with. His hope is that you'll get learn to get along with each other, regardless of how the project turns out.</p>
<p>These absurd examples were created to point out how absolutely ridiculous the idea of "socializing" in schools is. Many people had a friend who they stayed friends with all through grammar school- WHY? Because their names were alphabetically similar, and they always ended up in line with each other. As an adult, have you ever made friends with someone simply because your names were similar? How long would such a friendship last and how meaningful would it be, providing you had nothing else in common?</p>
<p>People often use the bully as an example of why it's so important to let kids "socialize" at school. If that's so important, then the bully needs to go to JAIL after a few months, because self-respecting society simply doesn't put up with that, nor should my 6 yr. old. Sure, there are crappy people in the world, but the world does a much better job of taking care of these things. A bullying brat in the first grade will still be a bullying brat in the 6th grade. He will still be picking on the same kids year after year after year, unless he moves to a new town. How long would the average adult put up with a bully? Personally, as an adult, I have only come across one grown up bully. I choose not to be around this miserable woman. So do many other people. THAT is real life. If she were a coworker, I would find a different job. If she worked at a business I patronized- not only would I refrain from doing business with that company, I would write a letter to the bully, her manager, the owner and the main office. A kid in a classroom has no way to emotionally protect themselves against such a person. I would never expect my kids to put up with bad treatment from a bully in the name of "toughening them up." For what? So they can be submissive wimps when they grow up too? So they can "ignore" their miserable bosses and abusive spouses? In real life, if an employer discovered that an employee was harassing the other staff members, that employee could be fired (pending the 90 day evaluation) or relocated. In real life, if you are so dreadfully harassed by a coworker you can seek legal recourse independently. In a classroom, the teacher and other children are often powerless.</p>
<p>The idea of learning acceptable social skills in a school is as absurd to me as learning nutrition from a grocery store.</p>
<p>As Homeschoolers, the world is our classroom. We interact with people of all ages, sexes and backgrounds. We talk to and learn from everyone who strikes our interest. We use good manners in our home and I'm always pleased when others comment on the manners my children have picked up. I believe good manners to be an important social skill.</p>
<p>Respecting common areas is also of value to us. We often carry a grocery bag with us on walks, in case we find trash that needs to be discarded. When we're waiting at a bus stop, if there is trash on the ground, we make a point to carry it onto the bus and discard of it properly. Once, while waiting at a bus stop- we saw a grown man drop his popsicle wrapper on the ground. He was 2 feet from a trash can- My daughter looked up at me with eyes as big as saucers. I told her (out loud) "It must have blown out of his hand from that little wind, because no-one would throw trash on the ground on purpose. I'm sure when he's done with his popsicle, he will pick it up and throw it away correctly- otherwise, we can take care of it so we don't have an ugly world." He did pick it up, rather sheepishly. I can't imagine expecting my children to have a respect for the cleanliness of common areas in an environment where bathroom walls are covered in graffiti and trees are scratched with symbols of "love" of all things.</p>
<p>Another social skill we strive to teach our children is that all people are created equal. I can't imagine doing that in an environment where physically disadvantaged children are segregated into a "special" classroom. Or even children who speak a different language at home. They are segregated and forced to learn English, while never acknowledging the unique culture they were raised in, and not enabling the other students to learn FROM them. Learning, in school, comes from the books and teachers. We will learn Spanish from a BOOK, not from a Spanish-speaking student; and not until 7th grade.</p>
<p>I have never felt it would be beneficial to stick my 6-yr. old in a room full of other 6-yr. olds. I believe God created a world full of people of all ages and sexes to insure that the younger ones and older ones learn from each other. A few years ago, we were living thousands of miles from any older family members, so I brought my kids (then 5 and 2) to an assisted living facility, so they could interact with the elderly. Staff members told us that many of the older people would wake up every day and ask if we would be visiting soon. We always went on Wednesdays. My daughters learned some old show tunes while one of the men played piano, and the others would sing along. If I didn't have to chase my 2-yr. old around, I would have had plenty of women ready to share the art of crocheting with me (something I've always wanted to learn.) If a friend was too sick to come out of their room during our visit, we would often spend a few minutes in their room. I always let them give the kids whatever cookies they had baked for them, and I ended up cleaning a few of the apartments while we visited, simply because I would have done the same for my own Grandmother. Every room had pictures from my kids posted on their refrigerators. We called this "Visiting the Grandmas and Grandpas" and my daughters both (almost 2 years later) have fond memories of our visits. I'm sure that if we were still visiting there, my unborn child would have a thousand handmade blankets and booties to keep him warm all winter.</p>
<p>I don't remember any such experiences in my entire School life, although I do remember being a bit afraid of old people if they were too wrinkly or weak looking. I never really knew anyone over 60. I never sped down the hall on someone's wheelchair lap, squealing as we popped wheelies and screeched around corners. I never got to hear stories about what life was like before indoor plumbing and electricity, from the point of view of a woman with Alzheimers, who might believe she was still 5 years old, talking with my daughter as if she were a friend. I never got to help a 90 yr. old woman keep her arm steady while she painted a picture. And I never watched a room full of "grandma's" waiting for me by the window, because we were 15 minutes late.</p>
<p>On a recent visit to an Art Gallery, we noticed a man walking back and forth, carrying framed artwork from his old pickup truck. I asked my 6 yr. old if she thought he might be the artist. We both agreed that was a possibility, and after a little pep-talk to overcome her stage fright, she approached him and asked. He was the artist, and he was bringing in his work to be evaluated by the curator. We all sat down and he explained some of his techniques and listened to her opinions about which piece she liked best. He told about how he enjoyed art when he was 6 and would "sell" pictures to family and friends. He recounted how he felt while creating a few of the pieces, and how each one has special meaning to him. He even let her know how nervous he was to show them to the curator and how he hoped she found them as interesting as we did. As he was called into the office, a group of thirty-four 3rd graders filed past, ever so quietly, while their teacher explained each piece on the walls. The children were so quiet and well behaved. They didn't seem to mind moving on from one picture to the next (The problem with homeschoolers is they tend to linger on things they enjoy). They didn't seem to have any questions or comments (Maybe they'll discuss that later in class). And they never got a chance to meet the gentleman in the pickup truck.</p>
<p>I hope my kids aren't missing out on any "socialization."</p>
<p>Lisa Russell; A Gen X homeschooling mom, writer, wife, daydreamer, U.S. traveler, hiker, poet, artist, web designer, and whatever else suits the moment.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some people here are making the argument that homeschooling = Brilliant children because they happen to know one person who was homeschooled and ended up at a prestigious university. Well, my question to you all is how do you know they wouldn't of flourished just as much in a public school or private school setting? ...Often times, people who are smart will thrive in whatever setting they are placed in whether it is homeschooling, private school or public school...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not all homeschooled kids = brilliant. I know of one family whose idea of teaching math was letting the kid balance the checkbook! In this case, the mom pulled the kid out because she was getting bullied, and kept her at home. So the kid was at home but not getting schooled. In another case, the mom was conscientious, but she knew that her kids were of average intelligence. Her kids got the basic education. 4 of the kids homeschooled all the way thru, and one went to high school. The mom was thrilled when he passed his classes. I would speculate that in this particular case, the outcome would have been pretty much the same whether they went to high school or were homeschooled.</p>
<p>However, these were exceptions, most definitely. The vast majority of homeschooling parents I've met over the years were extremely involved in their kids' educations. </p>
<p>Regarding gifted kids thriving in any environment, that is a MYTH. Many gifted kids need special resources, just as learning-disabled kids do. Otherwise, they often fall thru the cracks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, to the person who said they start school late and end around noon, are you kidding me? How is getting a couple hours of schooling a day adequate? Also, that definitely isn't preparing you for the real world where you will have to sit at a desk for 8 hours a day.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, we're not kidding. When the kid is learning at his own pace one-on-one, s/he learns faster. Just think about it. The best private schools boast a low student-to-teacher ratio. So, it makes sense that the lowest ratio of all, one-to-one, would allow the student to learn the most efficiently. Even in families with several children, each child is getting more attention than s/he would in even a small private classroom.</p>
<p>My son is now in college, and we NEVER spent more than 2-3 hours per day on schooling, max. And there were many weeks or even months in which we didn't do any structured schooling at all. But that doesn't mean he wasn't learning! We always had 1-2 books that we were reading together at the same time, usually one fiction and one non-fiction. My husband would read an adult history book (not a textbook) with him over lunch, and discuss it in depth. We honored his interests as much as possible, rather than following a set curriculum or conventional timeline. We did make sure that all of the important subjects were covered, but they weren't always in the same sequence or in the same style as mainstream schools would follow. We actually taught very few subjects in a 'structured' fashion. Instead, we allowed him free access to a huge selection of books, videos, educational games, etc. as well as going out of our way to get him involved with 'real life' applications, such as in-depth discussions with friends in technological industries, etc. </p>
<p>The subjects we did teach structured were math and writing research papers. I knew a homeschooled student who lost his scholarship because he didn't know how to write a research paper. That's why I believe that some subjects MUST be taught structured. No kid (except maybe a math wiz) will teach him/herself algebra for fun! (Although, I've heard of some homeschooled kids who did that in order to get into college. But I didn't want to leave something that important to chance.)</p>
<p>It is true that most homeschooling families have one parent at home teaching the kids. I quit my job as a software engineer to stay home with my son. It was financially difficult but I have no regrets. It was well worth the financial sacrifice. He is now 18 and he grew up SO fast that I treasure the time I had with him. I've met many homeschooled families who were affluent, but I've also met some in which the dad just earned average income, and they still managed to do it. </p>
<p>I don't know how a single parent could pull it off, though. So yeah, it's not for everyone.</p>
<p>Regarding the 8 hours preparing you for the 'real world' well, you do have a point there. I've always contended that the real purpose for conventional schooling is to teach people to conform. Ah, well, I'm not too concerned. Not everyone ends up in an 8-to-5 office job.</p>
<p>Hmmmm...interesting. As soon as I posted that, the mods removed this thread from the featured threads.</p>
<p>Shh! It's a conspiracy. I'm sure that's the reason it was removed. [sarcasm]</p>
<p>I apologize for the last post. My friend's stupid little brother came on here when I went to go take the dog out and left the laptop on the table with this thread up. It won't let me remove it.</p>
<p>Well I'm so glad you realized just how immature your "friend's stupid little brother" was in saying what he did.</p>
<p>Oh no, trust me. If it was me I wouldn't apologize.</p>
<p>To romanigypsyeyes: I've seen you do this before. Knock it off. You're acting like a fifth grader.
To lealdragon: It's still on the featured discussions page; it's just been bumped off the front page by other featured threads.</p>
<p>Uhm, no that's never happened to me before. Go look through my old posts if you're bored, but I wouldn't apologize for something I did, I have enough life experience to double check what I say or do before I go and get myself in trouble.</p>
<p>I was pulled out of public school for the last quarter of sixth grade (i was overweight and there was a lot of bullying.) I HATED it! I couldn't stand it! I'm a very social person, though, and hate being at home. My little sister, however, has started it this year and absolutely loves it. And she's not socially inept at all. It just depends on what type of person you are! btw, has anyone tried the ABECCA program? i dont know if thats the right spelling.</p>
<p>The correct spelling is A Beka. I don't recommend those curriculum materials, which are used in some private schools and by some homeschoolers.</p>
<p>A Beka materials are actually very good in reading and math. Subjects like history, civics, and science are written with a Christian audience in mind and, as such, are biased. A Beka fans would argue that public schools materials have become so "sanitized" of our nation's religious heritage that they are also biased. My mom used a mixture of materials that included some A Beka.</p>
<p>I strenuously disagree that the A Beka materials are good in math, although I will say I have seen worse. I have also seen much[/url</a>] [url=<a href="http://www.singaporemath.com/default.asp%5Dbetter%5B/url">http://www.singaporemath.com/default.asp]better[/url</a>] [url=<a href="http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml%5Dmaterials">http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml]materials</a> for math, which is a subject my oldest son pursues particularly avidly.</p>
<p>Speaking of math- and the Key to Curriculum specifically, what do you think of the Discovering algebra books (same publisher) I have heard they are more rigorous than many algebras. Tok. Adult-do you have any thoughts- everyones all shopping for next year these days!!</p>
<p>Hi, lotsofbooks, Key Curriculum has a great set of materials for primary math in the Miquon Math series (which I learned about from another homeschooling parent years ago, and have used with all of my children now). Oddly, their secondary mathematics materials are much worse, often because they are too easy and underambitious. I used EPGY distance learning courses and a university-based classroom math program for secondary math instruction for my oldest son, and my two younger sons are using the Singapore Math materials (but not at the algebra level yet). How much math background is there in your family? Is this your first time dealing with algebra instruction for your child?</p>
<p>I had always believed that to be true myself, as I was under the impression that even the Calculus book wasn't that great. We used the Geometry (portions of it) and it was interesting but the class (at a homeschool center) included too many other projects that cut into the Geometry time. My older one (now in college) then moved to Ind. U. HS correspondence, and she struggled through an old Prentice Hall Algebra (93) for Algebra , then an old AW for Algebra 2, UCSMP Geo. College books (Swokowski) from there using the Dual credit. No calculators allowed until Algebra 2, and no graphing allowed ever on exams. She's done well in college but stopped after finishing Calculus- got A's and B's I think. I finally scored a teachers edition of the PH Algebra after she finished (would have made life so much easier) and settled in to do that with my younger one. However, in the interim IUHS has moved to basically the UCSMP series. So--we have the option of just using the book and its 4000 problems but not able to get credit, or going to UCSMP for the credit. So anyway on the Scholars on line they promised me that this book (Discovering Algebra )was truly wonderful and much better than the other Saxon type books. I actually have ordered one because I want to see for myself, it seems very calculator driven. Seeing as how they really don't even use Graphing Calculators in college for exams I don't see a lot of benefit going down this path. On the other hand, the frequency of the classes and the interaction with the teacher really keeps us on task. The other subjects get fit around the formal classes and I've seen great things accomplished by keeping up the schedule. My older one always had to work all summer, as she was never done with her courses. Barely was able to get her HS finished to go to college. My only other possibility is the U. of Miss. uses the Dolciani and I've heard it's great, similar to our PH old Algebra. Any advice would be appreciated. Saxon makes her droopy....She's going into 8th grade. After my older one, my math skills are much improved, and I'm good until Calculus--then my husband gets to take over. I've also heard great things about Chalk Dust, and I'm quite a Larson fan also, I just don't know at which level to dive in as they are expensive. Thanks!!</p>
<p>Not sure if I got all that last post, but here is my two cents on math:</p>
<p>First of all, huband teaches the math (since he majored in it in college). We use text books that are being used in the public schools - all obtained off Ebay (and we were lucky enough to get all with teacher texts and solutions guides before they banned the sale of those. Sometimes you can still get them if the seller is careful in how they list the items - they might say "Student Text, resources and extras" or something like that and the teacher text might be included as an "extra".). </p>
<p>We liked McDougal Littel for Algebra 1 and 2, and DC Heath (Larson) for Geometry. We also have Holt PreCalculus and a statistic book. </p>
<p>We do use calculators because huband strongly encouraged them as did a friend of mine who teaches gifted math in public schools. Also, they can use them on the SAT so I figure practice with them helps with that. I'm not sure why they strongly recommend the caculator use - except that perhaps once you learn to add/subtract/multiply/divide their use cuts down on busy work. Still, the student has to understand the proceedures and the "whys" behind the operations because, as my husband loves saying, "calculators are stupid".</p>
<p>One other thing for what it's worth: the gifted math teacher recommended teaching Algebra 1 an then teaching Algebra 2 and Geometry at the SAME TIME. (One section of each) - the reason being that if you skip to a year of Geometry in between the algebras, students are more likely to have trouble.</p>