<p>It seems that many peer schools like Penn, Chicago and Dartmouth consistently do better on rankings than Brown does. Why is this? </p>
<p>this is discussed literally every year, look up the old threads.</p>
<p>My explanation is as follows.</p>
<p>Brown have been underrated for a long time at the ranking lists such as USNWR and world university rankings (QS, THE, ARWU) because the ranking metrics have consistently failed to catching the merits and attractiveness of the university: undergraduate focus with open curriculum (with strong pride and honor).
The UG focus inevitably caused the top-notch GR and professional programs of the Brown to being relatively small in the size and narrow in the range. And this again adversely affects USNWR and World university rankings via two channels: (1) reputation scores which are ultimately contaminated by the quantity and range of graduate academics and (2) endowments which are in part dependent on the alumni of professional programs.</p>
<p>I have no connection with Brown, thus, my understanding might be insufficient.</p>
<p>Quick search found these:</p>
<p><a href=“US News Rankings - Brown University - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/1390745-us-news-rankings.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“Why is Brown not as highly ranked on US News? - Brown University - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/930538-why-is-brown-not-as-highly-ranked-on-us-news.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“Why is Brown ranked so low in the Shanghai Jio Tong? - Brown University - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/937294-why-is-brown-ranked-so-low-in-the-shanghai-jio-tong.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“2009 USNWR rankings Brown gets Shafted - Brown University - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/555679-2009-usnwr-rankings-brown-gets-shafted.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“Reputation of Brown? - Brown University - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/563449-reputation-of-brown.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“Why is Brown so underrated - Brown University - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/780510-why-is-brown-so-underrated.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/361173-i-hate-how-brown-doesn-t-cater-to-us-news-rankings.html”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/361173-i-hate-how-brown-doesn-t-cater-to-us-news-rankings.html</a></p>
<p>As a parent of a 5 year plan student at Brown, and having dealt with a lot of the good and the bad at Brown, let me tell you, there is more to it than a fancy metric that “doesn’t get the subtle uniqueness of Brown”
Here is an insiders’ perspective:</p>
<p>Back in 2009, when my DD was accepted, I also asked myself why it didn’t come up higher in the ranks (although it was among the top 20, I believe)
As it was pointed out, Brown’s core principle is that of independence, translated academically in open curriculum, and practically, in hands-free-you-are-on-your-own policy. </p>
<ul>
<li>During the time at Brown (and with a DD at other university, my own experience yet at a 3rd one, and my current involvement with a 4th) I found that their communication with the students on requirements, deadlines, opportunities, was at best poor (if there at all)</li>
<li>Their student support, career advice department, and dean advisor elements are the weakest. I found myself informing THEM several times of deadlines that were upcoming, or some they had missed and created sometimes irreparable damage. Now, less than 3 months away from graduation, I am pursuing them to find out schedules and program for graduation week, and making sure they don’t mess up the ability of my DD to attend all 3 bachelor programs (she did a triple bach. plan). As of last week (thank God, now resolved after going through hell) they had missed to inform DD of a deadline to declare her majors, and as a result she would’ve had to graduate as a general BA, after having worked her B*** off every season of 5 years (no summer, winter or spring holiday) to navigate through the requirements of 3 career plans.</li>
<li>Because of Brown’s lack of planning, DD was left without lodging for a whole 1.5 month in her Freshman’s year, and every year after that. They didn’t realize that by accepting her in the 3 career plan, they had to provide for the lodging they charged for so generously for the duration of those studies. She had to sublet from a student from another college, and worry about finding this place while doing finals. </li>
<li>DD has a serious health issue that required two operations and 2 hospital rushes in these 5 years. After one of her surgeries, her mobility was limited for some time, and she needed an accessible dorm and transportation (Brown has small buses seemingly for this). Despite applying early and filing lots of paperwork, talking with lots of people, she wasn’t given either, and had to rent a place out of campus. Not even transportation inside campus could be arranged. Nothing. This made me mad, because she had to walk, on crutches, up and down hill by herself when she wasn’t supposed to bear any weight. My own U, at a fraction of the tuition, had and still has an amazing student service.</li>
<li>At all times it has been 100% up to her to research and find opportunities, internships, scholarships. One would say that for the pedigree that the college purports, they would groom and prepare their own well. But it is possible that some are more THEIR OWN than others after all. To my knowledge (and I have searched and asked), no effort is made to connect any of their students to their platinum network, which could open future career opportunities. meanwhile my other daughter attends a state university -entirely free thanks to her hard work- and I cannot begin to tell you what is done there to prepare students for real life after graduation, connect them with influential ppl in their fields, expose them to challenging situations, offer them leadership opportunities and social exposure, and support them through struggles that they may come up with in their journey. She’s worked alongside Nobel prizes and traveled the world while studying or interning, all supported by her college. Entirely. My Brownie did travel, did find some opportunities, by herself and fully paid on the side with her savings. And at times having to hear from some teachers, “if you do miss one of my classes to go to that event, you will fail my class”. No kidding. </li>
<li>Brown re-defines liberal arts. Not in a good way, in my liberal arts-trained opinion. I believe college students need to grow up, by golly -they are in the process of growing up when they leave. But the job of a good college is to guide them, equip them and support them in that journey, dumping as much of its collective and individual wisdom on them as possible according to its means and match them to the job opportunities where they can makes their biggest impact and grow the most. Brown has LOTS of means, and supposedly lots of wisdom gained through 250 years of existence. But students are left in the dark about how to navigate and benefit from this. I don’t think micromanaging their student life is good, but guidance, support, saving their time by providing timely lists of options, pertinent career classes, using its resources and connections by providing opportunities that other colleges cannot offer, are logical expectations.</li>
<li>The good? If the student is sure of what he/she wants to do to the very smallest detail, is sure NOT to change their mind through the entire 4-5 years, and already found the fellowships/scholarships/international programs they want to be part of, and already has outside careers networks through family and friends, then Brown is an OK place to study. Expensive, but it will do its job. </li>
<li>If the student wants to party hard, Brown has no limits. At all. </li>
<li>If the student expects top laureate academics to match the tuition, not the place.</li>
<li>If the student is not concerned about being able to show that they got a XX.X GPA and compete that way after graduation, then Brown is for them (pass/fail system)</li>
<li>If the student wants the flexibility of taking classes of all types and getting a very well rounded, non specific experience, Brown is good at that. </li>
<li>If the student loves cold weather and snow for 6-7 months out of the school year, Brown is it. With a lovely hill to drop big snow balls.</li>
<li>If the student wants to stay close to what’s up in politics, international relations, arts, and science, then Brown IS NOT the place. My D spens so much money commuting to Boston, NYC and Washington DC for this! Choose a college that’s already there, where things happen. Not Providence, Rhode Island.</li>
</ul>
<p>Quite a chip. I can’t say my daughter had these issues, so couldn’t disagree more. I will come back later with some specifics. Having to throw in a complaint about the weather really takes the cake. If that was such a major issue I do winder why she applied to Brown.</p>
<p>I’ll take a stab at a few - as I started to go point by point, I found that most of them all trace back to the same response so rather than quote the points and repeat myself here is my response to about half of these:</p>
<p>I will agree that Brown does not baby its students. I never had trouble finding deadlines etc. on websites or getting advice/responses from people via email if I had questions but I will agree that, compared to other universities, Brown does not hand hold its students with lots of proactive communication. It believes the onus is on the student to be responsible for their own education and seeking out advising. With regard to research (and getting paid), I don’t know anyone who applied for an UTRA that didn’t get it. In the real world people don’t constantly tell you/remind you of deadlines and opportunities for things so I would argue the Brown approach is actually closer to the real world and better prep for the real world than most universities.</p>
<p>
What?
Not really sure what you mean by that. If anything, Brown’s lack of distribution requirements makes it easier to have a very specific course of study. My ScB/AB in Biology/Classics in 4 years would not have been possible in most other schools.
Depends on what you mean by “stay close.”
There are ways to get involved in politics, RI does have a state government to be involved in
For IR, I guess you’re sort of right, but how involved is a college student in IR besides reading the newspaper/studying or doing a summer internship somewhere?
Arts? RISD is arguably the top art school in the country (and definitely in the top 3). Not only can you actually take RISD classes as a Brown student, but there is the RISD museum and the RISD art festival
Science? Again, everyone I know who wanted to do scientific research was doing it at Brown/in Providence - many of them getting paid for it.</p>
<p>It honestly just sounds to me like Brown wasn’t a good fit for your D and never would have been. I would never say that Brown is the best school for everyone, but I don’t think Brown is hiding the idea that it expects students to take active roles in seeking out what they need and want, nor do they ever claim that Providence is Boston, NYC, or DC.</p>
<p>Looking forward to your response @brownparent, would also love to hear @bruno14, @fireandrain, @mgcsinc, and @modestmelody (if by chance those last 2 are still active)</p>
<p>I’ll bite. </p>
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<p>Ditto I_wanna. Brown does not hold hands. I worry that as Brown has gotten more difficult to get into, admissions looks more at SAT scores than student independence. People say Brown admissions is quirky. It needs to be, to accept students who can handle a school that expects the students to craft their own education. </p>
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<p>Career services could be better. I think the advising components have improved considerably over the years. </p>
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<p>Helicopter parent much? Why are YOU as a parent doing this?</p>
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<p>Again. Why are YOU doing this? Are you going to hold your daughter’s hand in grad school and on the job, too? I agree with I_wanna – Brown believes it’s the student’s responsibility to figure this stuff out. </p>
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<p>I’m assuming your daughter is in the RISD-Brown program – although I can’t imagine what the third program is. I honestly have no idea how to respond to this – it really makes no sense to me. Other people I know in the joint program figured out housing (and I know several of them).</p>
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<p>As it should be. She’s not in elementary school anymore. My daughter did her own research, too, and learned a lot from that and got two great internships.</p>
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<p>platinum network? Huh? </p>
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<p>Boy, do I disagree with this. The entire point of the Brown education is to encourage exploration. Students who walk in having mapped out their future will most likely not take full advantage of the Brown curriculum. Most students don’t have this planned ahead of time. And I’ve seen many, many cases of Brown students finding connections with alums and professors that have led to great jobs and satisfying careers. </p>
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<p>I’d love to know how you know this. Do you follow your daughter around on Friday and Saturday nights? And why you think Brown is any different than other schools?</p>
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<p>Oh for goodness sake. There are plenty of cutting-edge professors at Brown. Jim Head for one. Andy Van Dam for another.</p>
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<p>Agreed. Open curriculum all the way, baby. If you and your daughter didn’t know this when you started, it’s YOUR fault for not doing due diligence.</p>
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<p>This is the exact opposite of one of the points you raised above.</p>
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<p>As well as every other school in New England, the Midwest, and this year in the Middle Atlantic. Good thing she didn’t go to Dartmouth or Cornell. Providence’s weather is actually modulated because it is close to the ocean. It certainly does not snow six months of the year – more like three, maybe four in a bad winter. October and April are beautiful. </p>
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<p>Anyone who is smart enough to get into Brown should know that Providence is not like NYC for the arts or DC for politics. Duh. I totally agree that there are benefits to being in NY and DC or LA. Only in NY can you go to the UN or a Broadway show; only in DC can you hang out in the US Senate. Brown students must figure out different ways to get experience in those fields. For example, I know several Brown students who are immersed in politics, and they volunteer for Rhode Island politicians. That is most definitely a viable path to doing DC political work, and some would argue a more effective way. (And those students figured out these opportunities on their own, no one was holding their hand.) </p>
<p>So sorry you and your daughter had such a miserable time at Brown. I’m going to warn you in advance that you are going to HATE commencement weekend. You should probably stay home.</p>
<p>My son, who’s a junior at brown, has loved his experience but he’s a self-directed go-getter. He’s researched in brown labs since freshman year and won an utra to finance his work; he did the careerLab January career symposium (don’t remember what it’s called); he’s a meiklejohn so he not only stays abreast of his own deadlines and requirements but advises first-years of theirs; and he has at least 3 other significant EC commitments. Brown is the perfect place for someone who wants to take a hold of their education both in the classroom and out. I’ve seen extraordinary growth in my son because he’s been given so much opportunity at brown and he’s learned, on his own, how to take advantage of it and how to manage it. </p>
<p>One more thing I’d like to add: one of the aspects my son most appreciates in his undergrad experience is his fellow students, which I don’t think houstonmom addressed. My son has loved being in class with other kids who fully engage, who carry the conversation outside the classroom. He loves brown’s intellectual, vibrant vibe. </p>
<p>^I think savy applicants know that Brown is the way your son describes. I know from my own son’s application and discussions with him about Brown.</p>
<p>Houstonmom1, you are the kind of entitled, whiney parent that every teacher dreads. I’m still young enough to be looking at colleges and even I know that what you’re putting your daughter through must be awful. I don’t know anything about Brown specifically, but you seem to have an issue with everything. </p>
<p>OP, I don’t know why you say “consistently” better. When my dd was applying the Brown and Chicago positions were pretty much reversed, for instance, though Brown wasn’t quite that high. I don’t follow the methodology of the US News and the weightings to each section to really answer your question technically, but I do not see that much has changed at those colleges in the few years. I don’t think that Brown is worse off than when my daughter went, I am reading of so many great developments. But there has been a recession. </p>
<p>But just a word on rankings, as much as all who love Brown want to see it doing well, those rankings just aren’t that meaningful, up or down 5 or 10 just doesn’t tell the story of a college experience or indicate how good the university is academically even. All those in the top 20 (or more) group are mostly peers in many ways with individual strengths. A few are too unique to even be numbered in the same group, like Caltech. Unless it is of most important to you to say to people, “I go to the number X ranked college in the U.S.” like maybe it is highly important to someone overseas, I would take these rankings with a grain of salt.</p>
<p>Here is a good article that points out that the rankings might not be totally meaningless but are somewhat misleading and perhaps irrelevant. I like this article because it talks about what questions might be more important to a student instead of “what is the ranking?” That way you won’t get into wrong headed thinking that Dartmouth is better than Brown for you because it is now ranked 10 and Brown is 14. What if the college you pick falls in rankings next 10 years, do you think that means your education is now devalued, like a currency? Maybe my daughter bet on the wrong pony and should have gone to Chicago. See how nonsensical this gets?
<a href=“How to Reinvent College Rankings: Show the Data Students Need Most”>http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/24/how-to-reinvent-college-rankings-show-the-data-students-need-most.html</a></p>
<p>Not to make much of these rankings either, but Forbes ranks Brown pretty well in their list. They do put Uni and LACs together and the methodology is completely different. They say they look not at input, like student SAT scores, but output, like postgrad success, things to consider as well as the data points in US News. Some of those things might be more important to your experience than alumni giving rate, say.
<a href=“Forbes America’s Top Colleges List 2022”>http://www.forbes.com/top-colleges/list/</a></p>
<p>OP, I believe that the above posters did an excellent job answering your question, so I would normally not post my own response. However, since I have a freshman at Brown whose experience has been vastly different from hm1’s daughter, I felt that I should respond to her curious response to your question (which, in my mind, didn’t really answer your question). At every school, each student has a unique experience. I won’t denegrate hm1’s characterization of her daughter’s experience. However, very little of her description was recognizable to me.</p>
<p>First, let me say that my son is more ADD than the average teenage boy and his organizational skills have, in the past, left much to be desired. Brown would not seem to be a good fit for my son, given hm1’s description. However, it has been the perfect fit for him. He is able to schedule his classes so that it would be difficult for him to oversleep if he forgets to set his alarm. He can take classes that interest him so that he doesn’t WANT to oversleep (YAY Open Curriculum!). </p>
<p>He can take classes Pass/Fail if, a month or so in, he realizes that he may have trouble keeping up with a heavy workload (YAY Pass/Fail option), but still wants to take all of his classes simply for the sake of learning (a truly novel concept in academia these days–learning simply for the love of knowledge). He is a caucasian Science/IR concentrator, semi-fluent in Mandarin, who decided to take Haitian Creole this semester P/F. When I asked him why he wanted to take Haitian Creole at all, he said, “Why wouldn’t I?” Only at Brown… :)</p>
<p>Agreed that Brown is not a hand-holding school. Yet, DS laughed about getting an email on Friday from his advisor telling him that she had noticed that he had a stack of graded labs that he hadn’t picked up from the graded assignments drawer. He has regular contact with his advisor, Meiklejohn, professors and TA’s. He gets Brown “Morning” Mail (which he reads most nights/mornings before he goes to bed) that alerts him to much of what is going on each day. I have the impression that Brown keeps communications wide open, though what the students do with that communication is up to them.</p>
<p>As for internships, DS has two internship opportunities currently–one in NYC and one in DC–and is waiting to hear about a third here at home. Two of the three are paid. Two are government-related and one is science-related. Brown sent him an email to let him know that there is some aid available to help pay for housing, and there are lots of internship and housing options listed on the Brown site. If he had any more options or assistance in finding internships this summer, he might be in real trouble. By the way, he went to the CareerLab once and the Writing Center once to get all of his resume’/app stuff done. I didn’t even know what was happening until he called with a question before his Writing Center appointment. </p>
<p>DS has already read about and understands how to graduate with honors and how the graduation ceremonies work from his involvement with UCS. He also is in a 6-person housing group and, somehow, they have managed to figure out the Housing Lottery system by talking to their RA and upperclassmen (I haven’t even attempted to understand). He had a great room this year, and on the rare occasion that there was a problem, he wrote to some guy who is with Residential Life, and the problems were resolved immediately.</p>
<p>OH, and as for interaction with the alumni network, DS got invited (or he sought out the opportunity–not sure which) to “host” a top Brown Alumni donor during Parent’s Weekend. He went to a nice brunch or luncheon or something and met a dozen or so leading alums in various fields of business and academia. So, those opportunities are definitely there. </p>
<p>I promise you, DS is NOT one of those hyper-social, go-getter, extraordinary-networker types. I honestly think he simply reads the Brown Morning Mail and responds whenever something looks interesting or important. </p>
<p>Wow, my bad for taking the time and effort to answer the OP based on personal experience in Brown for many years, and being able to compare it to a few others I know as well. I didn’t expect to be attacked and called names for trying to show what doesn’t come up in rankings and glossy leaflets.
This is a great forum to respectfully share insider information to help others make educated decisions (that is how it worked in the past for me, and I am happy to do the same for others). Yet some here took issue and used it to hurt me?! Please focus and state hard facts that will answer/help the OP question.
While I will not fall for a tit-for-tat game, a few things need to be straightened up.
- These are my opinions, not my daughter’s. I never said she didn’t like it -she did, loves the location, the weather, the atmosphere, the size, the landscape, her friends, the well rounded NON SPECIFIC (as in wide-base, not run-of-the-mil, individualizedl) career track she was able to forge there. As parents we see far more than they do, and often notice the practical side of things. Like, did the school strongly equipped the student for the job world?
- @ Fireandrain, boots2, Do not call me helicopter parent, or whiny; she has a TUMOR and went through several operations while at Brown, while remaining a leader in several organizations, not skipping a single semester, or staying away from internships or responsibilities in her many activities outside school, maintaining top grades, with her family 10 states away. But she was also handicapped, she needed basic support that she didn’t get. You may use the term discrimination, but helicopter parent is out of place. That bullying approach doesn’t help raise Brown profile.
- And yes, she wouldn’t have made it to Brown if she wasn’t independent, self directed, and unafraid of challenges. Remember, this is not about showcasing our kids’ skills, it is about describing high and lows of this college.
As I’ve said in other posts, Brown atmosphere/students is relaxed, open minded, non-stiff, inclusive, racially, religiously and culturally diverse, informal, unconventional, humanitarian… and some of other pros and cons are in my previous post.</p>
<p>Houstonmom1:</p>
<p>I would say that your first post demonstrated both an unusual experience and unusual level of support from you for your daughter. I would say your second post points out that the circumstances were also unusual.</p>
<p>I would not rush to say that parents see more and are more practical. As a recent graduate now approaching his 5th year reunion in May, I would say that parents see their concerns and their desires for their children with the wisdom of experience, but also are deeply disconnected with the possibilities for young Btown graduates and how powerfully the tiniest, even silly experience at Brown can present remarkable opportunities later on.</p>
<p>Students know more than most post-secondary institutions and even parents give them credit for. Brown’s entire educational and social structure depends on acknowledging this fact.</p>