<p>This might seem like a dumb question, but why do you suppose none of the performers/composers at top schools such as Curtis or Peabody has ever gone on to become a popular musician ala the Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan, or Mariah Carey? I would think most of the people there have the talent/creativity/skills to make popular music, being that it is so much more simple than orchestral music, and I find it very very strange that not even one out of the hundreds of musicians the top schools graduate would be tempted by the money, glamor, and unceasing adulation afforded rock stars and divas. Why are there never any CMU or Oberlin VPs on American Idol? there's cake laying right on the table, and none of these over-talented kids wants to touch it. Why! Thanks Ya'll.</p>
<p>What makes you think that there AREN’T a lot of music geniuses currently in pop music?</p>
<p>There are many reasons, but probably the biggest reason why the Curtis, Peabody, CMU, and Oberlin graduates you speak of don’t try for the “money, glamor, and unceasing adulation” in popular music fields, is because the path towards achieving fame as a rock star can be argued to be infinitely more competitive than succeeding in classical music.</p>
<p>I think most people interested in that path went to Berklee. Consider this partial list:</p>
<p>Al Di Meola, Paula Cole, Branford Marsalis, John Mayer, over half of Dream Theater, Bruce Cockburn, Al Pitrelli of Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Susan Tedeschi, Keith Jarrett, Brad Whitford of Aerosmith, Quincy Jones, Joey Kramer of Aerosmith, Diana Krall, and Donald Fagen.</p>
<p>Also, Josh Grobin dropped out of CMU for his recording contract.</p>
<p>Maybe the pop geniuses begin to have success before they even get to college? For example, I think Prince started to perform successfully when he was a teenager.
Also, a lot of pop stars are the products of art school.</p>
<p>David Miller, a tenor from Oberlin, is a member of the “operatic pop” group Il Divo that was put together by none other than Simon Cowell.</p>
<p>Oberlin tends to produce more indie-rock types than pop, however. Liz Phair majored in art history there. Karen Orzolek aka Karen O (Yeah Yeah Yeahs) started there before moving on to Tisch. Others include Brian Chase (Yeah Yeah Yeahs), Chris Brokaw and Stephen Immerwahr (Codiene), Jen Trynin (Loveless), Jason Molina (Songs: Ohia), Sooyoung Park (Seam), Greg Saunier (Deerhoof, Nervous Cop), and John McEntire (Tortoise). Jon Philip Theodore (The Mars Volta) is more progressive/experimental and Josh Ritter and Billy Jonas are more in the folkie vein. Al Haig and Guy Van Duser are well known in the jazz world.</p>
<p>What goes on with American Idol, for example, has so little to do with actual musicianship – I would think anyone with actual talent would do much better just plugging away at the “normal” ways one gets known in the marketplace.</p>
<p>Firecracka, dont confuse music with marketing. And by the way----practically EVERY vocalist dreads the big family holiday get togethers, when the usual idiot uncle asks the perenial question “if y’all are so good why dont we see ya on that thar American Idol”. (Apologies to my uncle in the Ozarks)</p>
<p>Popular music seems generally to be only about production and marketing, doesn’t it? Serious musicianship in people coming out of the Conservatories does wind up on the radio and in the music stores: Herbie Hancock from MSM, John Medeski from NEC, great music that sells records, too. The value of “moving music forward” that they teach in the jazz programs is evident in people like that.</p>
<p>I think there a quite a number of conservatory types in the pop music business, but you don’t hear about them because they aren’t the big names. </p>
<p>But there is another issue as well. My son is working on his MM at Mannes in cello performance and also trying to develop inroads in to the pop music world. He is doing pretty well, actually. However, there is a subset of skills needed in pop music that they don’t teach in classical programs. Much of the pop music that he is doing is not written down. When he goes to play with a band he MAY get a melody line, chords, and lyrics, but that is it. Pop players need to be able to play by ear and they need to be very good at improvisation. Improv skills are especially difficult and take awhile to learn. These kinds of skills are not needed by classical musicians and are never taught. String players, especially, have a difficult time with this because they don’t usually do any jazz, either. He is also finding that he needs to be able to work on the fly, be very efficient, and be flexible. Many classical players have a mindset that is very structured making the flexible nature of pop music more difficult. </p>
<p>Son was working with one group that very much discouraged the project leader from trying to work with string players because “they always have to have everything written down for them.” Because my son does quite well without having any music, he thinks he will be able to be reasonably successful in time.</p>
<p>As a VP major DD agrees with musicamusica. She cringes every time someone (and it’s not only the uncles) asks why she’s not on American Idol. AI is know for brutal regimen if you make it and a horrendous contract. And they don’t really care as much about good singing, more about the drama.</p>
<p>The existance of popular music and art music are so different. Though one can be trained in classical music then thrive in the popular music scene, the reasoning is very different. Though say Frank Zappa is a genius this by no means puts him in the same category as a classical composer, like Steve Reich. Nowadays, many popular musicians come out of conservatories, but they also come out of universities. Popular music most often requries very few of the skills devolped in classical music training, rather skills attributes like luck, looks, and connections.
I believe the reason there are more geniuses in classical music than popular is because the general environment. If a classical musician is a lunatic, they’ll still get a job, because they’re good enough. In popular music, you have to be good looking and in style. The two areas are so different…</p>
<p>Some good points made here. I’ve thought of a few others:
Some of my favorite pop musicians are incredible musicians, regardless of genre – Sting, Chicago, Bono… Even the Beatles were quite good musically. (Take out the words, and the personalities, and there is still some great musical stuff going on.)
Pop musician generally means singer. Classical instrumental musicians are often drawn to music without words because the words “get in the way” of the communication for them. (We have this discussion often at our house, because I’m a words person, and S2 is not.)
Musicians who accompany singers are not generally well known; the attention goes to the singer. My S just bought his new horn from a professional horn player who has played on the soundtracks of over 200 movies, and I am pretty sure you have never heard of him. (Which leads me to another of my pet peeves - why do movies list dollie grips and assistants to the assistant wardrobe dresser of the secondary camera man’s assistant… but for music, they list the composer, and often the music director. Occasionally, if the performer is already famous - Joshua Bell or Izhak Perlman - he’ll be named. Otherwise, we never find out who played that beautiful horn solo or cello line…)
Classical music still fights the “snob” issue (the subject of countless articles, books, threads, etc). Pop music is attainable by the masses. In part, because those who don’t understand or “hear” music can still understand the words, and hear a strong beat or volume. (Why I believe that the simpler the music, the louder.)</p>
<p>I’m a “classical” music fanatic (right now I’m listening to Brahms’ original two-piano version of A German Requiem) and this discussion makes me think of the term I saw on one of my classical recordings newsgroups: “Krossover Krap.”</p>
<p>This is when a long-established classical artist ventures outside his or her usual genre, IMO, to sell more recordings. Classical roots have grown into a number of popular artists, such as Peter Nero, Roger Williams (I’m dating myself here), Mitch Miller, and many others.</p>
<p>Believe it or not, some great geniuses from music history have given the popular avenue a try. Beethoven, for example, wrote the venerable potboiler “Wellington’s Victory” for popular consumption, although most critics (not me) deride it as musical trash. Also, some “mainstream” artists have veered toward the classics. Keith Jarrett has recorded Bach’s Well-Tempered Clavier and Barbra Steisand has recorded opera (“Classical Barbra”).</p>
<p>It’s difficult to discern what motivates an artist to lean one way or the other. However, my money’s more on on money rather than artistic integrity.</p>
<p>This reminds me of Liberace’s famous reaction to reviews that said he wasn’t a real pianist: “I cried all the way to the bank.”</p>
<p>When we are talking about performers, in the pop world there is some X factor that makes people into superstars–it doesn’t even necessarily require supreme performing talent. It has something to do with personal appearance and personality, but it can’t really be defined. Look at Bono: he has a very nice voice, but as a lyricist, he’s not stellar. The music, I think, all comes from the Edge. But Bono has that X factor in spades.
There are some classical performers who have it too, and that’s why they become more famous than equally talented performers.</p>
<p>Another thing that I think is starting to happen is that music is becoming less “well defined” in terms of genre. A lot of the indie music combines classical elements as well as jazz, rock, funk, fusion, etc. Some music is very difficult to classify. I think that modern classical music will also become less well defined as time goes on. </p>
<p>I think that, eventually, the tried and true conservatories are going to have to offer training in a wider variety of musical skills besides just classical. It will be interesting to see if they choose to adapt or stick with the stuff they always have.</p>
<p>“Barbra Steisand has recorded opera (“Classical Barbra”).” -My D’s studio has a year end party end of spring semester. Its a white elephant opera recording party—bring in the worst vinyl or cd. She won in spring with Classical Barbra.</p>
<p>“I think that modern classical music will also become less well defined as time goes on.”</p>
<p>It’s pretty undefined now, and almost nobody listens to any of it. It doesn’t sell CDs, and it doesn’t sell tickets to concerts. (With a few exceptions that pretty much prove the rule.) I think there’s a real danger that modern classical music will entirely disappear into academia.</p>
<p>LOL - Classical Barbara was a big mistake - as was classical Michael Bolton. Other classical flops - Charlotte Church and Sarah Brightman. Of course, many “real” opera singers put Andrea Bocelli in the group too.</p>