@shawbridge: Without disagreeing with anything you’ve said (because all your points are well taken), I’d add two additional notes:
First, most business/management jobs aren’t finance jobs, and one suspects that there are broad swaths of business professionals who would get more day-to-day benefit from studying Shakespeare and Peter Drucker than from delving in to higher-level maths and Brealey & Myers (or whatever the standard finance text is now that the earth has cooled and dinosaurs no longer roam).
Second, while I think you are correct in analogizing accounting to a foreign language, it just happens to be the foreign language that businesses are required to speak in order to access the capital markets. I’m not an accountant, largely because I’d be horrible at it, but it can be a great career path in itself or a very useful way to get exposure to many parts of a corporate organization early in one’s career before broadening one’s skills to get into the finance function or a business unit.
I agree Shawbridge’s post is excellent and his points well taken, and I want to second SOG’s point that most business/management jobs aren’t finance jobs. There is this almost willful blindness on CC that “business” doesn’t encompass actually developing, making, distributing, marketing, selling and servicing actual products and services – not just financing.
@SomeOldGuy, got it. That is why I said that it accounting is an extremely useful language to learn if you are visiting the country – and in this case the country is business (or more broadly management). It just doesn’t teach you how to think. So, while learning it is useful, an undergraduate major in accounting will not teach you how to think. That is part of why prestigious universities don’t have accounting (or marketing etc.) majors.
@Pizzagirl, I completely agree that there are many other jobs in business. I get involved in lots of commercial things as well as financial things and there is a lot of business and managing of business that has nothing to do with finance. Learning to think well is useful in non-finance jobs too. [So are people skills, etc.]
@SomeOldGuy, while Shakespeare may (or may not) help in understanding people (I took a course where I read at least one Shakespeare play each week and while I learned to appreciate great writing and to fake understanding literary analysis, I don’t think it contributed to my understanding of people much relative to courses I took in social and cognitive psychology and personality theory etc.), learning to think well is what I would focus on. Drucker actually thinks quite well. If you aren’t well-trained whether, it is unclear whether reading Drucker will train you to do so. [Tom Schelling writes in English (not math) but with extraordinary intellectual clarity. In my experience, most people who don’t think well but read his work do not really understand what he is saying.]
@shawbridge, just want to point out that Booth hasn’t had an undergraduate b-school (it was known as the GSB not so long ago) for many decades now. Otherwise, many good points.
Agree with @someoldguy that while learning accounting may not sharpen your analytical skills, those accountants who possess good analytical and sales skills are very potent (and the reason why a good number of big businesses are run by those with an accounting background). The training may not be the same, but I see accountants as the lawyers of the business world. They draft the numbers that a company wants the outside world to see (and with FASB being principle-based rather than rules-based, you really can make the argument that most accountants should get a liberal arts education before getting training as an accountant).
A really critical moment in my life came as the result of taking an introductory accounting course (at an elite college with no business major, then or now). The course was really well designed, and it was fun, easy, and intellectually engaging, and it served me really, really well in the ensuing almost-40 years. Anyway, one day the teacher brought in the head of the local Arthur Andersen office (irony, yes), who gave us his number and offered to hire any of us who wanted to try accounting as a profession. His basic pitch was, don’t worry if you don’t know the technical rules, you’re smart, and we know how to teach the technical rules to people who have a lot more trouble learning things than you do. What we don’t know how to teach, and what we really need, is creativity, analytic ability, writing ability, and intellectual confidence.
I was a comparative literature major, and it floored me that maybe my skills could work in a business context. That had never occurred to me, really; I was very mystified by the commercial world. I didn’t become an accountant, but I wound up taking more accounting and economics courses, and pursuing a program that got me an internship on Wall Street. I was still a comp lit major, though (which, Purple Titan, was plenty analytical).
I think in this environment it’s harder for employers to invest in the kind of training that JHS describes - you’re smart, creative, analytical and confident, so we’ll teach you the skills you need. I feel that the number of training programs that “my generation” went into right out of college have shrunk considerably. (Not to mention reimbursement for MBA studies, but that’s another topic.)
Kids can “self train”. Don’t specialize to the point of lunacy (triple majoring with essentially zero classes outside of your comfort zone). Don’t decide that because you’re an English major you can’t learn statistics or learn to program. (You don’t need the kind of proficiency that an applied math major needs- but being an English major who has taken a class with SAS or SPSS and actually understands what large data-sets are and why they are important for lots of different businesses is a meaningful “signal” to an employer).
I agree with Pizza- there are fewer and fewer “training programs” out there. But the ones that are- retail, hospitality, sales (industrial and commercial, things with long cycle times) often get the cold shoulder from current college students. They hear “sales” and they think being a clerk. People who sell complex industrial equipment are highly skilled, well compensated, and have phenomenal career prospects. (just to take one example). And many of those companies still train.
And a huge point of entry- starting at a non-profit. Marketing, finance, HR,operations- the salaries are lower at a non-profit in these functions but it is easier for a kid with limited job experience to talk their way into one of these jobs (especially if you’ve been volunteering there for a year already). The team at the Red Cross that figures out how to get the clean water and blankets to a flood zone or hurricane area- supply chain is a wonderful career path. The folks on the finance team at your local United Way- a smart kid can pick up the in’s and out’s of how to develop the annual budget, prepare for an audit, present the investment statement on the endowment, create a five year strategic plan…
“I agree with Pizza- there are fewer and fewer “training programs” out there. But the ones that are- retail, hospitality, sales (industrial and commercial, things with long cycle times) often get the cold shoulder from current college students.”
My S was interviewing for a management training program in the insurance industry which unfortunately he didn’t get, but it was an excellent, very thorough program. I would see absolutely no reason to think that it was a “worse” job than his cousin who’s in IB at Morgan Stanley in one of those positions that so many CC’ers covet. Indeed, it’s a far more well rounded program that would have exposed him to all facets of how a business really works, instead of the observational this-is-how-the-money-flows-and-so-now-I-think-I-understand-business.
I know somebody with the Biology major who ended up being very successful in his business career and currently is a CFO. After being hired at some consulting company and finishing his MBA, he is happily contined in business and eventually ended at his chosen locality as a CFO. I also know nother person with the engineering degree. He is planning to go for MBA (his goal is Harvard), his company is also paying and allowing him to take time of to get his MBA. This young guy is already managing good size team. BTW, he graduated with his engineering degree from in-state public and hd several offers, in engineering and in business.
@blossom I heard a lot about supply chain in recent years and can understand its importance. Is there anything one can transition into from supply chain? I always thought of it as a “blue collar” area of business, necessary but not considered prestigious by any means. Can one go far in the field?
?? You don’t think there are CEO’s at companies in the supply chain who are well paid, successful, manage complex problems requiring creative, innovative and analytical thinking?
And who on earth picks a job because it’s “considered prestigious” by others? Why not just ask others if they prefer you to eat chocolate vs vanilla ice cream instead of making your own choice as to which you prefer. There’s way too much “what do others think of my choices” on CC.
Supply chain typically is not “considered” at all by all the finance types who think they’re way too good for it – until the product that creates their cash flow doesn’t show up on time. CEOs care about it. A lot.
^^Don’t understand what @pizzagirl is saying. Are there lots of company CEOs that came from the supply chain part of the business? There are logistics and distribution companies that essentially are part of other companies’ supply chains, of course, but I think @Canuckguy is asking is what comes beyond head of supply chain eat a company that isn’t a logistics/distribution company? In a very small sample of heads of supply chain that I know, several have retired at that position (or Chief Procurement Officer or some such title) or moved as CPO from one company to the next. I can’t think of upward promotions to COO or CEO.
The head of supply chain at a retailer ( Gap, Walmart, 7/11) likely makes low seven figures, plus stock. I’ll need to look up salaries for head of supply chain at an automotive company- probably more. Who do you think has to worry about actually getting product to market at a company like Apple?
Is this not enough to be considered an appropriate target role for a college kid?
Not sure I understand the question. It’s better to major in accounting???
All kinds of orgs need logistics. Consider medical needing blood, vaccines, physicians, nurses, etc… Consider military needing service members, food, vehicles, aircraft, weapons, ammunition in the right places. Consider charities needing donations delivered where they will help.
Going way way back to the original question posed by the OP:
It is quite simple. The most sought after MBAs from Stanford Harvard Columbia Chicago Northwestern (outside of Wharton) don’t feel or believe it is needed. Until these schools feel the need by virtue of market forces or desirability declining…no need to change what works for them.
Working in logistis is hard work with long hours and unpredictable possible calls on the weekends. Low pay at the beginning and definitely require certain type of personality / I would say a talent much more than any academics. However, these possitions get fet filled with college grads, for sure, so if you do not have a degree, there is no chance, there are plenty of the ones with the degree for each position. So, the notion of producing more of graduates with the Business Degrees is kind of not in synch with the market situation where there is definite shortages of qualified engineers, medical proffessions…etc.
Recent CEO’s of Apple, Walmart, UPS, and Raytheon (to name just a few) all have backgrounds in supply chain and operations. There are many high level execs in almost all industries that come from supply/operations.