Not to derail (again) - but the head of supply chain of Gap is a 44-year-old woman with an undergrad degree in mechanical engineering from Kettering. Just thought that was interesting…
I read the first few pages and just wanted to chime in with an anecdote. I have an undergrad in Biology and Math from a smaller liberal arts college. I spent every summer in college doing prestigious science internships (worked on Human Genome Project in early 90’s at LLNL). By Senior year, I had decided that while I loved studying science, i didn’t want to be a scientist. Luckily, my school was one of the places most of the big strategy consulting/Ibanks interviewed at and I was able to get several great consulting offers. Picked the one that offered me the opportunity to rotate industries every 6 months and ended up getting into 3 top business schools (HBS, Stanford and Kellogg). I was one of the youngest 5 students at Kellogg my year and even though I had worked in a lot of industries and had done everything from high level strategy, to financial modeling, to manufacturing operations consulting, I sometimes could see that my classmates with more years of work experience got more out of our classes than I did.
I am not a fan of undergraduate business degrees - with a few rare exceptions (e.g. Wharton), I don’t think an undergrad in business has the same rigor as an Econ or Math or Science degree from a top school. I think having work experience makes business classes so much more relevant. While I had never taken an accounting or finance class as an undergrad, my Math degree helped me soar past a lot of classmates in business school who had business undergrads.
Just my .02
^ I think your two cents are … right on the money as I believe that the most potent combination with a MBA is either a technical backround such as engineering/CS or a strong liberal arts foundation. I also believe that the MBA is not merely the big brother of a BBA or its natural progression for that matter.
I am not a fan of the “typical” and generic default degree that is a business one, but I do believe that there are number of specialty business degrees that are both competitive and valuable. People have mentioned degrees in Supply Management, and I believe that people who hold a degree from ASU or Georgia Tech in such field will be armed in the career race. The same could probably be said for people with degrees in accounting from Texas or UIUC. I am sure that are a good number of specialty schools that are true gems for the professional-minded people.
All in all, I still believe that the distinctions between a purported business degree or a BA degree in economics are mostly in the eye of the beholder. Just as they are between a LAC setting in your typical business UG school. Some schools have bridged those differences with ease as the examples of Claremont McKenna and Wharton easily show.
This brings up another point (about why an MBA may be more worthwhile than a BBA): quant skills + business knowledge is a potent combination. Communication skills + business knowledge is pretty potent (all 3 together is obviously even better). So if you pick up an undergraduate business degree as well as another major in a rigorous quantitative or analytical or even intensive writing field, that’s fine. But when I see someone with just an undergraduate business degree, I’m just not as assured of the quantitative or analytical or communication chops of that person compared to an MBA who majored in physics/engineering or CS/philosophy or communications/English (from a top school).
Mind you, I would view a BBA who picks up a physics/CS masters from a reputable program just as favorably, but other than BBA’s who later get fin math/FE masters, you just don’t see that happen all that often.
Edited: looks like @xiggi beat me to the “post” button.
@shawbridge has me pegged perfectly. I was wondering if anyone with a supply chain background getting beyond CPO into CEO or COO positions. Thanks to @Chardo and @PurpleTitan, now I know they do.
Seems like there should be enough schedule room to include substantial course work at least two of these areas (not necessarily a double major, but a major in a subject in one of these areas is presumed), with some of the basic foundational course work in the third, if a student has that kind of goal in mind from the beginning of college.
I think that’s why Northwestern (as well Princeton/Rice/Duke to lesser degrees) has those business-related minors/certificates. So that students have to pick a major (or 2) where they hone widely-applicable quantitative/analytical/communication skills while getting the opportunity to pick up knowledge/skills that may be germane in an industry or profession of interest.
Anecdotal only - but 30 years ago when I was an Econ/MMSS major, had accepted a job in marketing, I went to the dean to ask whether I could take a marketing class at Kellogg my final quarter, and was emphatically told no - with a lot of sniffing about how WE were liberal arts, not business prep. Times have changed! Then again, MMSS wasn’t just feeder to Wall Street - our generation did a broader range of things with the degree than just salivate over finance jobs.
Potter added that the best candidates are the ones who are in constant dialogue with CEOs and have a massive Rolodex of contacts. What’s more is they are also extremely proactive.
“You have to be a good political operator because banks are fairly political institutions,” Stevens said. “You are managing egos both up and down and not letting your own ego destroy yourself on the ride.”
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/9-high-paying-wall-street-jobs-2012-7?op=1#ixzz3RCD2sUXM
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/9-high-paying-wall-street-jobs-2012-7?op=1#ixzz3RCCxFH5e
Sounds pretty much they way it was 20 years ago to me. Most guys are NOT doing rocket science. They learn about an industry, have or make contacts, and yell at the analysts.
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/financialcareers/07/investment-banker.asp
BTW most people DO NOT end up working on Wall Street so all these posts about their ways are not germane for most prospective students. Saying just go to Princeton and major in philosophy has one small problem–PU and schools like them are very unlikely to want you. So what then. One option that world for many in the real world and has for at least 50 years I know about is go to a good school–say Top 50-75,major in finance or accting, etc. get hired by one of the 1000’s of firms that hire from such schools every year, and have a nice life without dealing with nutty Wall Street or Big consulting aholes. Nobody will expect you to work all night or 100 hrs per week. If you dont like that you can do engineering or teaching or nursing etc etc. If you do philosophy you might spend your 20’s at a coffee shop on the wrong side of the bar.
Barrons- the corporate world is not limited to finance or accounting. How about go to a good school, major in what you love (psychology?) and get hired by one of the 1000’s of firms in say- marketing-- a great career path for an undergrad pysch major? Why do your posts extolling undergrad business degrees always create this false dichotomy that if someone isn’t an accountant they’ll be serving coffee for the rest of their lives?
There are so many fantastic career paths that DON’T involve accounting and finance.
I’m a Classics major- I run a large corporate team, and my bosses, colleagues and direct reports include Renaissance History majors, Art History majors, Romance Language majors, and tons of social sciences- anthropology, psych, econ and poli sci.
Finance is fine for those who love it (I’ve worked for companies who run their own finance boot camp, and we believe we teach it better than a second tier college churning out finance majors, but of course, that’s because we get to select who goes to the boot camp). But since you’re in a generous mood- what suggestions besides barista do you have for kids who hate finance- or are terrible at finance- or have already washed out of a finance major???
Not meant to be exhaustive list but F and A have best placement and pay in general. And again most places that have fin boot camps are hiring at Princeton. So just go to Princeton, right? Right. When did you go to school BTW? The data indicate Classics majors are not averaging higher paying jobs.
https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Unemployment.Final_.update1.pdf
No kid underemployed, but I spend lots of time at Starbucks and talk to the baristas about life. I have the time because I am very happily retired. And I spent a few months of my sabbatical from work as a Starbucks barista. Very hard on the legs BTW.
@shawbridge wrote
Many business that are introducing new products or are growing rapidly have problems which require accountants that were taught to think. Some of these accounting problems include the following:
Multi-product production accounting.
Transitioning companies from the financial reporting framework for small- and medium-sized entities to large entities.
Just in time inventory control.
In addition the FBI hires large numbers of undergraduate accounting majors every year. The following is from the FBI :
@shawbridge also wrote:
Both Chicago and Stanford have PhD programs in accounting.
^ You’re really going to pull out PhD programs when the thread is about UNDERGRADUATE business programs?
I don’t see the kids getting C’s in their finance and accounting classes getting the high paying jobs the surveys like to cite. I do see lots of kids getting railroaded into studying something they aren’t interested in by parents who believe folks like Barron when they say that F&A have the best placement rates and highest pay.
You’ve got a malleable kid who likes pretty much anything? Great. You’ve got a kid genuinely interested in finance? Great.
But as ludicrous as you think my comment is to go to Princeton and study philosophy- that’s how ludicrous it is for a kid to assume that his/her lackluster performance (due to indifference? boredom? Lack of any intrinsic skills?) in finance and accounting is a guarantee of a great corporate job.
And yes, I am very old. But classics (even older) never go out of style as an entry point to a wide range of careers. I wasn’t interested in academia and I’m sure if I’d become a Latin teacher or a nun my compensation would be dragging down any salary survey in which I participated.
So really Barrons- what advice do you have for the kids who can’t cut it in finance and accounting, besides to work at Starbucks? ? Breezy employment options for a kid graduating from University of New Haven with a 2.0 in finance???
Here is my experience in the Great White North.
Business is among the most competitive undergrad programs as far as admissions go. I am unaware of any school where it is easier to get into their business program than their faculties of arts and science. This is not to say the applicants are necessarily among the very best students, however. Where my kids attended, I would shudder at the thought of them going head-to-head with the engineering physics majors, for example.
According to the studies from CLA (Collegiate Learning Assessment), the best majors for improving critical thinking are sociology, multi- and interdisciplinary studies, foreign languages, physical education, math, and business, (after factoring out cognitive ability to make sure we are comparing apples to apples). Among these, lowest unemployment and highest earning are found among those in math (science) and business.
Math has a high cognitive threshold. The employers like math majors because most people can not do the stuff. Business otoh, is more forgiving. If you are really strong, focus on mathematical finance and throw in a math minor to show it is no fluke. If you are good with numbers but not quite up to the level required for finance, try accounting and do an economics minor. Still too hard for you? There is marketing and the rest.
Since they attended a highly quant-based program, I recommended that they do a minor (one third of the total program) in the humanities to highlight their all-around strength. What is interesting is that while doing a foreign language is much more challenging, employers seem to think more highly of an English minor. They obviously do not know about the CLA. If this is what they crave, give it to them. Why sweat it?
Finally, the business school openly admits their 4 year undergrad program is their flagship degree. They earn a lot more money selling their 12 month MBA, but they feel they can do a better job molding and teaching the finest business undergrads in the country over a 4 year duration. I find it hard to disagree with them.
^ the situation is different in Canada. For instance, to get into a business school, students would need to have taken Calculus, if not differential equations/linear algebra. In the US, they start at calculus but at most “typical” business schools they start at precalculus. Because mark thresholds are announced, and estimates for actual results for an admit are a bit higher than those, it’s easy to see that business isn’t a default major for a Canadian kid who’s not too interested in college and just wants to get a job (as is the case in the US). A’s, often high A’s for top schools, are expected in the U/M subjects, for instance, or a high “cote R”. Top 20 American undergraduate business schools have a similar recruitment process, but the literally thousands of business majors across the US don’t work like that at all.
"I think having work experience makes business classes so much more relevant. "
- I agree. I have known so many cases (including my H. and me) who got their employer’s funded MBAs while working full time. This makes much more sense, then just taking bunch of business classes. Neither of us and bunch of people around me did not need these MBAs, just got them because employers paid. However, I did not realize back then, that having an MBA will make a jobs search so much easier. Potential employers appreciate it, I was told that several times and the fact that you got it while working full time and taking care of the family tells a lot of positive facts about applicant. Anyway, any degree is better than none, specifically there are places that have oficial policy of not hiring without any 4 year degree, managers cannot even interview those with matching experience unless they possess any 4 year degree.
@shawbridge wrote:
I wrote:
@Erin’s Dad wrote:
Absolutely.
Currently most states require or will require 150 semester hours of education to Obtain a CPA Certificate. The following is from the American Institute of CPAs:
The following is from Wharton Department of accounting:
This is a link to Wharton undergraduate accounting program:
https://accounting.wharton.upenn.edu/programs/undergraduate/
Masters program:
https://accounting.wharton.upenn.edu/programs/mba/
and PhD accounting program:
@MYOS1634 How do you manage to know so much about our system, if I may ask?
You are quite right. When my kids were applying for business school, they had to offer calculus and a second senior math (algebra or statistics). How well they did in calculus can apparently predict if they will survive the program. The university also makes it quite clear what grades are required to be competitive, so there was no attempt at managing yield. I remember they enrolled 200 students from an application pool of about 3000 that one year.
My kids attended suburban high schools in the county with the highest average test scores in the province. One won county-wide award for statistics and the other had the highest score on Waterloo’s Euclid math competition among female students in the school. I thought they would be competitive in the program and was shocked that they were “blown out of the water” by some of their more clever classmates…
No matter. Since graduating at the depth of the recession and had to start at the bottom like most, they are now in the passing lane, successfully getting good jobs over applicants who have more than a decade of experience on them. Many of their strong high school friends taking more “esoteric” majors, otoh, are still struggling to get traction.
Quality will eventually win out (seems to take about 5-8 years), in my experience, but what a harsh way to learn humility.
The average American business student you are talking about would be the equivalent of our community college student, I would think. With all due respect, should they even be in university?
Canuck- whether or not they should be in university is of course a great question. But the reality is that yes- they ARE in university, and they and their parents read the surveys and have decided that majoring in finance or accounting is the golden ticket for success and never, ever knowing the pain of being unemployed.
Until it’s not. Barron’s would have you believe that even a second or third tier accounting degree is more employable than a top tier degree in comparative literature or European history. My experience hiring and interviewing thousands of new grads over the decades suggests that this is not the case. Companies don’t need to hire a kid with a C average in accounting from a directional state U with essentially “open admissions” to its business program. It’s just not that hard to hire the kid with the A- average from a much more rigorous program.
You’re not hiring unicorns here- you’re hiring accounting majors.