Why dont we get paid more.

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>It seems that in the undergrad at universities, engineering majors are usually the smartest, they have the most rigoruse curriculum's. They have the most in depth knowledge. They are actually one of the most critical parts of society and the way we live today is pretty much in part of engineerings and scientist as well as mathematicians.</p>

<p>I just cant seem to figure out why we are some of the least paid professionals around, sure we start out high(average of 50K a year) though most other majors aren't that far behind, and there education is a walk in the park compared to ours. </p>

<p>There has to be some other reason for this, I just cant see why we don't get paid more. </p>

<p>as an example, someone works there ass off through engineering and they start out making 55K a year. while the same person goes to a business school for management and apply for a job at a department store such as circuit city and they can become a sales manager in just a month or 2 and they will make around 50K a year. and there are alot of places to move up in a place like this, where a store manager at circuit city makes around 120K a year, some without a college education,</p>

2

<p>Circuit City store managers make 120K/year?</p>

3

<p>yeah, the store manager, the top guy in each store, each of these guys usually manages 2-3 stores.</p>

<p>Under him is a operations manager and they are there to make sure the store manager stays in line and that everything operates correctly. They make around 80K a year.</p>

<p>Standard department managers and sales managers make around 50-60K a year.</p>

<p>yes I was shocked to, But I work at circuit city and I do the pay stubs on Thursday mornings. I asked and its mostly the same at all department stores.</p>

4

<p>
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I just cant seem to figure out why we are some of the least paid professionals around, sure we start out high(average of 50K a year) though most other majors aren't that far behind, and there education is a walk in the park compared to ours.

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<p>To be fair, I don't think that engineering is the most difficult major around. I would argue that physics is the most difficult major. Mathematics is probably 2nd. Yet those guys get paid * even less * than engineers do. </p>

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as an example, someone works there ass off through engineering and they start out making 55K a year.

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<p>Well, it should be said that not all engineering students are really 'working their ass off'. I've known quite a few engineering students who, frankly, never really worked all that hard at all. Granted, they worked harder than the laziest liberal arts students, but that's not saying much. These engineering students lollygagged around and got low grades, but grades that were still good enough to pass. And they still ended up with quite decent engineering jobs. </p>

<p>Engineering is therefore a quite good deal for those students who barely graduate. The difference in starting pay between the best engineer and a mediocre engineer is not very large. For example, in 2005, a Berkeley chemical engineer in the 75th percentile made 60k in starting salary, but one in the 25th percentile still made 50k in starting salary. It's a really good deal for that guy in the 25th percentile (although it is a rather poor deal for the guy in the 75th percentile). It means that you can graduate in the bottom of your class, and still get a pretty decent job. </p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/ChemEngr.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/ChemEngr.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
while the same person goes to a business school for management and apply for a job at a department store such as circuit city and they can become a sales manager in just a month or 2 and they will make around 50K a year. and there are alot of places to move up in a place like this, where a store manager at circuit city makes around 120K a year, some without a college education,

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<p>To be fair, I think it should be noted that not everybody gets to become a sales manager or operations manager in Circuit City. While I don't know about Circuit City specifically, I am somewhat familiar with other retail chains, and becoming a sales manager is no joke. Not everybody who wants to become one gets to become one, and even if you do, you're constantly under pressure to make your numbers, or else you'll be canned. This is certainly not a job for the weak-at-heart. So when you're looking at pay stubs of these store managers, you are just looking at those people who made it. What about all those people who didn't make it? This is survivorship bias. </p>

<p>I compare it to my former experience in technology sales (where I was the engineer). The long-time sales guys made well over 200k each. But the job was commission only, meaning that some sales guys literally made nothing for months on end. It also meant that those sales guys who weren't successful would quickly quit, because nobody wants to make nothing. If you can see that you're not going to make much, you're going to quit. So the only sales guys who stuck around were obviously the guys who were making plenty of money. I'm sure that if you factored in all those sales guys who tried it out for a few months and then quit (because they weren't doing well), and then all those other guys who never even took the job in the first place because they felt that they couldn't do well, then the 'true' compensation and desirability of that sales job would be much more apparently lower. </p>

<p>Besides, I'll put it to you this way. Engineering, for all its problems, is still far higher paying than almost any other bachelor's degree you can get. Sure, you might say that these Circuit City sales managers are making more than engineers are, but you could say the same thing about liberal arts majors. Why aren't THEY going to work at Circuit City? </p>

<p>Look at the salaries for all of the majors at Berkeley. Why don't all those guys majoring in say, History of Art, Conservation & Resource Studies, or Theatre & Performance Studies go work at Circuit City? After all, these salaries that these guys are getting with their degrees are mediocre. If anybody should seem to want to become well-paid retail managers, you would think it would be these people, as those jobs apparently pay much more than what they are currently getting. So why aren't they flocking to those jobs? </p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2005Majors.stm#salary%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2005Majors.stm#salary&lt;/a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/ConsRes.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/ConsRes.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/HistArt.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/HistArt.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/TDPStud.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/TDPStud.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think that shows that those retail manager jobs are not that easy to get and not that desirable, otherwise, all of these low-paid liberal arts guys really would be flocking to these jobs. </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong. I have often times remarked on CC about how engineers are underpaid, especially the top engineers. But I do think we have to put things in perspective. Engineering definitely has its problems, but I think it is still better than most other majors out there.</p>

5

<p>sakky thank you its always a pleasure reading your posts.</p>

6

<p>I work for an electric utility company as a performance engineer at a coal-fired power plant. I've been on the job for 7 months and my starting salary was $52,000. I am in a training program for a few years so I am not quite sure how much my salary will increase. However, I play the game right I could become a supersivor within 10 years and all of the supervisor positions at my plant pay $100,000/year. Engineers get paid overtime but it is straight time, not time and a half. Supervisors get no overtime and they tend to work a lot of hours since my plant is very demanding. I personally think my starting salary was good. With my rent, brand new car, and school loans, I don't have a lot left over but I would not be able to even have my car and afford my school loans if I had a lower salary.
One of the new engineers who had been on the job for about a year got hired to work for a different power company as a nuclear design engineer for 68k/year....a lot better than 52k but it may be a more narrow career choice than the path I am on.</p>

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<p>I don't know how to quote yet..</p>

<p>"To be fair, I don't think that engineering is the most difficult major around. I would argue that physics is the most difficult major. Mathematics is probably 2nd. Yet those guys get paid even less than engineers do. "</p>

<p>Physicists and Mathematicians I believe usually work in academia, where they are professors. Though they get paid more $80-120K range per year, their job outlook is not very good. For instance, Mathematicians are currently in DECLINE, while physicists main job target would be in academia, where it's very competitive. Nevertheless, engineering is hardwork in college, but no on forced you to take an overload in classes. Take summer school or an extra year to spread the courseload. Not only will you not cram the information into your head, but you will actually remember and use its principles to be a well-educated engineer. Personally if you want to make money are your are social, business/marketing is something you want to spend your time. However, engineering requires you to enjoy what you are doing while not worrying about money to much. I am currently a computer science and computer engineering major, but I hate business aspect. That's why I will let you have boring job in the business world while having no clue why things work.</p>

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<p>[ quote ] Blah blah blah blah. [ /quote ]</p>

<p>Without the spaces, of course.</p>

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<p>From a Canadian perspective, there is huge oversuppy of engineers. For the first time yesterday, I saw a campaign on tv to hire foreign professionals. The add involved someone from the middle east applying for a fast food job with a master's in mechanical engineering. </p>

<p>This issue has been raised with the government because many engineers in Canada drive cab and other work. Many like myself, never find work in their field (chemical eng). I think you have to look at supply/demand for salary info and here in Canada, there is alot of downward pressure on salaries for engineers because of homegrown grads + immigration this saturates the market and cripples wages, certainly in Ontario. Also, age discrimination is rampant - just look at the lawsuits at Ford and GM for age discrimination of engineers.</p>

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<p>[ quote ] Moderators/web host should recode this website to have a quote button. ........TESTINGGSSS why is this message to shorT? 10 chracters? [ /quote ]</p>

<p>^anyone, i tried it without the space (as you mentioned), but I get the above error.</p>

11

<p>
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[ quote ] Moderators/web host should recode this website to have a quote button. ........TESTINGGSSS why is this message to shorT? 10 chracters? [ /quote ]</p>

<p>^anyone, i tried it without the space (as you mentioned), but I get the above error.

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<p>You have to have at least 10 characters in addition to your quote.</p>

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<p>
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Physicists and Mathematicians I believe usually work in academia, where they are professors.

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<p>Yeah, if they have the ability and tenacity to stick it out all the way to the PhD. Having just a bachelor's degree in physics or mathematics is not particularly marketable. This is why I say that an engineering bachelor's degree is one of the most marketable bachelor's degrees around. </p>

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From a Canadian perspective, there is huge oversuppy of engineers. For the first time yesterday, I saw a campaign on tv to hire foreign professionals. The add involved someone from the middle east applying for a fast food job with a master's in mechanical engineering.

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<p>Hey, this happens commonly with people who have other kinds of degrees. I know people with master's degrees in humanities who have ended up working as secretaries. There are perennial stories of people with PhD's in the humanities who drive cabs. </p>

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This issue has been raised with the government because many engineers in Canada drive cab and other work. Many like myself, never find work in their field (chemical eng).

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<p>I personally think that the problem is that a lot of engineers simply expect too much. The simple fact is, most people in most majors do not end up getting jobs in their field. After all, how many history majors actually become historians? How many poli-sci majors actually become political scientists? How many sociology majors actually become sociologists? It is well understood by most people that they will probably end up having to find work in a different field from what they studied. One issue with many enigneers that I see is the sense of entitlement - that they think they automatically deserve a job in their field. </p>

<p>Take a gander at the history graduates from Berkeley and you will see that the vast majority of them took jobs that had nothing to do with history. For example, I see a clerk at the FBI, I see a cop, a realtor, a customer service rep for Stubhub, and even a ski patroller at Perisher Blue (an Australian ski resort company). And remember, this is Berkeley we're talking about. Berkeley is supposed to be one of the top schools in the world, with a highly regarded history program. So if even graduates from that program usually end up not working in their field, just imagine what the situation is like for a person coming from a no-name history program. </p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/Hist.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/Hist.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>One major issue that I see with engineering students is that some of them are apparently just unwilling to move. Want to find engineering work in Canada? Move to Fort McMurray in Alberta. You've gotta be willing to go to where the jobs are. Even that history guy who took the ski patrol job was willing to move to Australia to do it. If you're not willing to move, then you shouldn't be surprised if you can't find a job.</p>

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<p>Sakky, you seem to make the assumption that history majors <em>want</em> to get a job in their field. Outside of academia (which requires at least six more years of schooling), archival/museum work, and elementary and secondary school teaching there just aren't any jobs designed specifically for history majors. I chose history as a major because I like the subject material and find it interesting and engaging. I did not choose it to land myself a specific job as none of the options above interest me. Liberal arts degrees are valued for the general skill sets that come with experiencing the education. They are to separated from professional degrees (engineering, business, architecture, etc.).</p>

<p>MCB majors, who overwhelmingly land jobs related to major, are a couple thousand dollars behind history majors in median/average salaries: <a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/MCB.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/MCB.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>OP: If you want money, then you don't have to major in engineering. It's your choice. Oakland PD pays a $69,162 to $87,172 starting salary plus benefits. Become a cop. <a href="http://www.oaklandpolice.com/jobinfo/benefit.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.oaklandpolice.com/jobinfo/benefit.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This aside, I don't think it is fair to call all other majors a "walk in the park" compared to engineering. Science and math is definitely not easier than engineering. I don't think you will dispute this one. Social science and humanities is not necessarily easier than engineering. These majors are so different that they require different types of intellegence - different skills and ways of thinking. The humanities are based on ideas, thoughts and opinions. There is still a distinction between competent work and incompetent work there, but this is less clear cut. Science and engineering are based rules, facts, and equations. Unlike the humanities, you either get it or you don't. But this doesn't make it harder. I can easily imagine (actually I know...) someone who's good a math and science, and who can grasp an engineering concept immediately, but who is a terrible essayist and cannot memorize and synthesize large amounts of material sufficiently that a history major would. The ability to write well, read critically, question assumptions, speak eloquently in class, etc. are all skill sets - which unlike engineering skillsets cannot be learned overnight - needed to be mastered by social science and humanities majors.</p>

<p>So what is the complaint? Study what you can excel in and you will have a better chance of success.</p>

15

<p>Management positions typically pay more because they are harder to replace. It takes a long time for you to get used to a company's system before you can effectively manage a part of it. The learning curve for an experienced engineer to replace another experienced engineer is much smaller than that for management positions.</p>

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<p>s1185, what you mentioned there is exactly me, I am everything you wrote there for the social sciences and humanities. sadly I don't excel in anything that has to do with math and science. Im actually god awfull at it and It takes alot of time for me to get ideas. Thogh I don't really find anything in the social sciences and humanities interesting. though I love what I study EE/CSE/</p>

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<p>i think we get paid just fine.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Sakky, you seem to make the assumption that history majors <em>want</em> to get a job in their field. Outside of academia (which requires at least six more years of schooling), archival/museum work, and elementary and secondary school teaching there just aren't any jobs designed specifically for history majors. I chose history as a major because I like the subject material and find it interesting and engaging. I did not choose it to land myself a specific job as none of the options above interest me. Liberal arts degrees are valued for the general skill sets that come with experiencing the education. They are to separated from professional degrees (engineering, business, architecture, etc.).

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<p>They are to be separated only because we as a society have * chosen * to separate them. In theory, any particular degree program can be 'professionalized'. We, as a society, have simply chosen not to do that (yet) with history. But we could. For example, back in the old days, mathematics was considered to be a sub-branch of philosophy and was enjoyed basically for its own intellectual sake. Computer science as a discipline was a subsector of mathematics. We as a society branched off CS as a 'professional' version of mathematics because it proved to have value in the market. I'm quite certain that if we really wanted to, we could branch off a 'professional' version of many social sciences or humanities. For example, economics begat finance. </p>

<p>But in any case, that's really neither here not there. I am simply pointing out that just because you major in something doesn't mean that you should automatically expect to get a job in it. The liberal arts majors clearly don't. So why should engineering be so different? I know people who just want to study engineering for the sheer intellectual interest in it, not because they actually intend to do it for a living. And as I have pointed out in other threads, there are plenty of engineering students who decide to take jobs in management consulting or banking, or head off to law or medical school, and thus will never work as engineers a day in their lives. I see nothing wrong with that. Nobody says that you have to work in the field that you majored in as an undergrad, nor should you necessarily expect to. CNN has reported that the average American changes careers (not just jobs or employers, but entire careers) about 3-5 times in their lifetime. Hence, it is likely that sometime in your career, you will be holding down a job that has little to do with whatever you majored in as an undergrad. </p>

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[quote]
OP: If you want money, then you don't have to major in engineering. It's your choice. Oakland PD pays a $69,162 to $87,172 starting salary plus benefits. Become a cop. <a href="http://www.oaklandpolice.com/jobinfo/benefit.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.oaklandpolice.com/jobinfo/benefit.html&lt;/a>

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<p>The major issue with that is that it isn't exactly 'easy' to become an Oakland cop. Otherwise, far more people (from all majors) would be doing it. To become a cop, there has to be openings, and the Oakland PD doesn't have a lot of openings. The same thing can be said for being a cop in San Francisco. Openings are few and far-between. Hey, if you can get it, good for you, but I wouldn't bank on it. Otherwise, you would expect all those people making minimum wage at Walmart to all become Oakland cops.</p>

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<p>The reason the starting salary is so high for Oakland PD is the risk involved. Id take a lower starting salary over getting shot.</p>

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<p>I am in full agreement with S1185. When I signed up for chem eng, i believed the crap they told me that there were plenty of jobs blah blah... useless garbage. </p>

<p>I have no innate sense of enititlement. But the department told me everyone gets good jobs in the field without any problem.</p>