<p>"who is informed and educated on an issue or topic and the opinion of a person who is not. "</p>
<p>-Again, I disagree that person who is informed and educated will hold correct opinion and person who is not will be wrong. And again, you are trying to change my opinion despite my warning that it is futile. You can express your opinion, but do not try to change others’ because you feel that you know more about subject. Let people alone. The idea of education, college education, k-12 education, any education is very personal and nobody should care why one gets education or not. I am going to classes right now strictly for fun. I have no other aspiration to do so. I am not getting any additional brain power, nor I am planning to use my new skills professionally. Because of people like me, few others in my class have the same fun together and our instructor has a job. We do not care what others think of it. Waste of money/time? Maybe. Saving on shrink’s fees? Maybe. Making fun of us? Maybe. Envy us? Most likely.</p>
<p>“Why stay in college? Why go to night school?”</p>
<p>-Because employer pays. Why not? At least, that was primary reason in my case. Also additional benefit: much less house cleanning and doing dishes. If you are not at home, you are not doing it, right? I had blast. Both my H. and S. survived. One year all 3 of us were at college (paying only one tuition - for son). Only at some point after I got my MBA degree, I realized how great it is to have one. Much easier to have a job in very economically depressed region of the country. Lots of interviewers told me that they were impressed with my MBA and more so that I got it while working full time and having family. My field does not require any college degree, experience is much more important. However, some companies (by far not all) would not hire into my position without 4 year college.</p>
<p>^^^
MiamiDap, you make good points here, I doubt anybody would disagree with you. However, I’d be remiss in not pointing out that you are responding seriously to the lyrics of a song that was intended to be a joke. Probably you’ve never heard the Talking Heads song “Life during Wartime”.</p>
<p>I think hadsed’s points are very thoughtful, and not surprisingly, I largely agree with him.</p>
<p>I just wanted to make a point, though, about MD Mom’s first reply about community college. I agree that community college was not originally intended as a remediation academy – or what we used to call “Continuation School.” And I agree that c.c. has become the default next-step to compensate for high school failure. </p>
<p>It appears, in my area, that there are two main populations who attend c.c.:<br>
(1) those who significantly underachieved in high school – despite abundant opportunity; and the opposite:<br>
(2) those who are/were quite capable of matriculating to a 4-year college, did study hard, and did take advantage of middle-class opportunity in an educationally supportive family, but who merely want to save two years of U.C. tuition for the purpose of transferring in as a junior, and/or to be more competitive for the top U.C. campuses because it is quite difficult to stand out in one’s high school class even with a 4.0 and a number of e.c.'s. </p>
<p>I guess one could argue that with #2, the taxpayer is saving money, because two years of a public education at a 4-year Higher Institution is cheaper than four years of the same. :)</p>
<p>It seems that currently the two minority populations at c.c.'s are the two that used to compose the majority:
(1) h.s. graduates of any age, plus college graduates of any age, who are attending a specific vocational/certificate program offered there (a lot cheaper than what a private vocational institution would charge).
(2) fresh h.s. graduates who were “C” students in high school – not because they didn’t work their buns off and take advantage of opportunity – but because they seriously struggle in school, would struggle even more in a full 4-year college, and are oriented more toward practical achievements than academic ones. For example, typically (in past years), a young woman would obtain an A.A. degree in business (loosely called), which would acquaint her with the terms/procedures of the business world, after which she would (in the “old days”) be hired in some administrative capacity). Ditto for a guy. </p>
<p>So I might disagree slightly with MD Mom in that those who do struggle with academics but are hard workers can nevertheless find c.c. a valuable growth step for them. Recently, some of my students have chosen this step because they know (assume) it’s a “terminal” degree for them. It extends their exposure to the terminology and expectations of the adult world, and will promote their self-confidence if they complete that junior degree, which is important to economic productivity.</p>
<p>So 3 out of 4 of the c.c. populations are, I think, taxpayer-worthy. I guess the question is, what percentage of subset #1 of set 1 comprises the total population of community colleges? Possibly the answer varies with region.</p>
<p>^CC was my spring board. I got my job right after and first employer and several others paid for the rest, including MBA. CC was very worthwhile in my case. However, CC was the first in my 2nd profession. After working for 11 years in engineering, I decided it is no use. If I did not like it at that point, I would not love it later. It was one of the best decisions that I have ever made, although I was about 3 credit hours away from BS in Electrical Engineering. That is where I draw the line. If you do not like it, get out, find something else. In this case I would not have a degree for the sake of degree.</p>
<p>Folks who never took a single course in macroeconomics, who can’t tell a liqudity preference function from a hole in the ground, tell me with a straight face that keynsianism is socialism.</p>
<p>Folks who never studied climate science, tell me that all climate scientists are part of a socialist conspiracy. </p>
<p>Folks tell me that they dont need to learn about the history or culture of Islam, because they learned all about Islam by watching the twin towers fall on Sept 11th. </p>
<p>And of course they know all about socialism, though they cant say who Kautsky was, how the Revisionists differed from the Leninists, or whether they think the works of the Late Marx are consistent with those of the Early Marx. </p>
<p>Why go to college, when you can be an expert in macroeconomics, climate science, Islamic history, and 19th/early 20th century political ideologies by just listening to the radio on your way to work? </p>
<p>"1) those who significantly underachieved in high school – despite abundant opportunity; "</p>
<p>I personally know four bright students who are attending CC.</p>
<p>One had weak HS grades and other issues, was working to bring grades up, with success in junior yr, applied to 4 yr colleges, got rejected by all, had a depressive episode. CC may be a terminal degree, or if he can get his act together (as he was starting to do in jr yr of HS) may get grades good enough to transfer to 4yr state college</p>
<p>second had serious ADHD, had difficulty with exec functioning in HS, is taking mainly comp sci at CC, seems to be doing well with this more focused curriculum, and is maturing, and I think is a great shot for transferring to a local direction state college for comp sci.</p>
<p>third had serious ADHD, parents whod never gone to college, no real GC support. Havent seen her lately, so not sure her path. She is going to CC.</p>
<p>Fourth is only mildly ADHD, but lacked the initiative to determine college app process deadlines on her own. HS GC did NOTHING to notify her, parents did nothing (family issues). As a result she apparently never applied to a four year college. She will attend CC and attempt to transfer. I think she could be qualified for one of our better 4 year state colleges.</p>
<p>None of these four, IMHO, would be good candidates to learn one of the higher paying blue collar trades.</p>
<p>I don’t know…do many of the majors really “educate you”?..lot of self study at the larger publics. I tend to think a kid getting away from their home and safe zone is what it’s all about…be it college, armed forces, ect.</p>
I haven’t said that an educated person will always have a ‘better’ opinion (I define better as ethical and useful to society), nor have I said that a person who is uneducated is incapable of this. However, it’s absurd of you to say that an educated person is more likely to have a better perspective or be able to see an issue from multiple perspectives and form a ‘better’ opinion than someone who cannot do the above. An education is the best way to gain this knowledge and perspective.
Yet I have basis for my opinion and all you have to say about yours is that I’m sticking my nose in other people’s lives. The fact is, everyone is indirectly poking their noses in everyone else’s lives because we live as a society together and we affect each other in indirect ways. That’s why I care if other people have the capacity and the knowledge to be able to think about things fairly, because if we find that the majority of our population cannot, then we start to have big problems (which are not easy to spot since this is the case in global society today).
I don’t feel anything. I had an idea, I thought about it some more, expanded on it, and wrote an essay on it that appears in the first few posts. I have good reasons for my assertions I think. Right now you’re not really replying to them.
No, I don’t think ignorant people should be left alone. As I’ve said before, the people around me decide whether or not we live in a good, efficient, successful, and moral society. For this to happen, everyone must be educated.
I’m unsure of the point you’re making here.</p>
<p>So the basis of most of your argument so far as been to stop being so nosy. Well… if the people who don’t get an educate were to have no say in political and ethical issues, I think there would be less of a problem. The reality, though, is that they do and when you have so many people with that power then you really need to make sure that everyone can make good decisions. One way to augment a persons capacity for good decision making is to get an education (you can refer to my previous posts for a further explanation on this, I’d hate to sound like a broken record).</p>
<p>
This is exactly what I mean. Such ignorance is detrimental to society and if we’re aiming to rid ourselves from all the dehumanization, hatred, discrimination, religious controversies, and other relevant filth, making sure that everyone sees the big picture is vital. One way to do this is to make sure everyone is educated.</p>
<p>
Sure, but remember general education requirements. It’s not in-depth learning in one area, but at the very least students are exposed to new ideas and encouraged (or required, sometimes) to be able to explain and interpret these ideas and perspectives. These are humanities mostly. Mathematics education teaches people to think in a logical and organized fashion. Science is sort of in between in that it teaches you how to take these logical arguments and interpret them into meaningful information.</p>
<p>It sounds to me like you want other people to justify your reasons for going to college. No one is going to do that for you. You’re going for the same reason millions of other people are going- you want a job. Most likely your grades are determined by a curve that will be set by the other people in your class. Face it, your grades and your future will be determined by how hard you work compared to other people. You want to learn? Go to wikipedia. Get your pseudointellectual butt back in the ratrace and stop complaining.</p>
<p>Brooklyn…,
In post #49, you stated ideas for which you should NOT go to college.
Based on what you stated in post #49, colleges braiwash in this area big time.
I completely disagree with post #49. My knowledge is gained thru life experience, not from the books. I know these facts first hand, I have lived this , which is a prove that what they are teaching at least in some colleges is a total opposite of factual data. </p>
<p>I actually have wanrned my D. about this, just in case she accidently happen to be part of these type of discussions, run away from them as far as possible. So far, she has listened. I did it because of my S’s unfortunate brainwashing experience at his college which has set him in a wrong state of mind for the rest of his life. I am glad that my D. has chosen to get brainwashed by me, person who has experienced actual truth about all of that and not some profs/books/economists…etc, who devised some brilliant utopian ideas about it.</p>
<p>A you mean 48, not 49. Unless your son was propagandized into believing Comm College can be a good place for kids with various issues senior year in HS :)</p>
<p>I am unclear what you disagree with in 48. Keynes and all neo-keynsians I am aware of are devoted to a market economy with primarily private ownership of the means of production. The notion that climate science is a political conspiracy seems to me prima facie absurd. Do you deny that Islam is a complext entity, evolved over more than a thousand years and across a thousand miles, and can’t be adequately studied by watching TV for several hours? Do you deny that Marxism is a complex ideology, which had bitter internal ideological struggles, and that fully understanding it requires learning something about those struggles, and the complexity (I would add sophistication, but I dont want to start that debate) of Marxist thought? </p>
<p>So what happened to you son, did he come home talking about the paradox of thrift and quoting Paul Krugman? :)</p>
<p>Wiki and books, I’ve got a pile of books on my desk that has any factual information on those subjects you can spout out times a couple million.</p>
<p>Brooklyn,
My S. has never gone to CC.
Yes, I deny every idea stated in post #54. I will not get these out of any books/profs/academia/media…etc. …and definitely not out of any college course.
I refuse to do so. </p>
<p>Do not forget about your own brain, it is very poweful, if we allow ourselves to use it. It is not just a sponge that absorbs ideas of others. It is a tool to develop our own ideas based on factual historical data (not utopian ideas of few others who put themselves above the crowd) and your own life long experiences.</p>