College Degrees a Waste of Time & Money

Parents Forum
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<p>College</a> Degrees A Waste Of Time, Money</p>

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Colleges are quick to argue that a college education is more about enlightenment than employment. That may be the biggest deception of all. Often there is a Grand Canyon of difference between the reality and what higher-education institutions, especially research ones, tout in their viewbooks and on their Web sites

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Colleges should be held at least as accountable as tire companies are. When some Firestone tires were believed to be defective, government investigations, combined with news-media scrutiny, led to higher tire-safety standards. Yet year after year, colleges and universities turn out millions of defective products: students who drop out or graduate with far too little benefit for the time and money spent. Not only do colleges escape punishment, but they are rewarded with taxpayer-financed student grants and loans, which allow them to raise their tuitions even more

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<p>Don't disagree, too many kids are going to colleges and many really should not be going.</p>

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<p>I'm not seeing any defective products among my friends' kids--or my kid's friends.</p>

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<p>I think part of this has to do with how much high schools push kids into the college track. They should encourage students to be academically successful, but so many kids would be better suited for technical schools but they feel somewhat stigmatized, and like their friends will make fun of them if that's what they decide to do. Society needs people who DON'T go to college, and there are plenty of ways to make great money without going to a four-year academic university.</p>

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<p>No matter what the arguments are, those with the best education will get the best jobs. The USA has been steadily losing non-college jobs (and some college jobs, too), and with this increasingly flat earth, the situation won't get any better.</p>

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<p>I agree with some of the articles points, but not all of them. Certainly gives you something to think about. </p>

<p>My child is still going off to college though.</p>

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<p>Interesting. I do agree that far too many kids go to college who would be better off getting a skill like plumbing, carpentry, mechanic, electrician, etc that cannot be outsourced. I also agree many take on way to much debt when a cheaper college would be just as good and we should avoid the big debt load at all costs. I can't afford my dream car either lol.</p>

<p>Is it the college's fault though that they let in students who they suspect will fail? How would a gatekeeper system work and how do you identify those who will succeed despite all indicators saying they won't. We all know of the exception to the rule who almost flunked out of high school and is now a doctor.</p>

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<p>College is as much about giving your child a scholarly environment in which to grow up as it is future marketability. If it all about their future paychecks we here on CC would be sending our kids to tech/vocational schools. No one should be surprised that the plumber or the guy who lays your hardwood floor makes more than the teacher or the woman who is the CFO for a non-profit. That isn't really the point of a Liberal Arts education.</p>

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<p>There is a difference between and education and a job as historymom suggests. And we are all better off if more people have an education, even plumbers, etc.</p>

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<p>yep^^^^^^^^</p>

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<p>That article was a waste of my time. I don't want to be a plumber or a nurse, sorry. The better jobs still go mostly to grads of the better colleges. The rest are the same people yapping about the declining middle-class and income stagnation.</p>

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<p>To me, the better jobs are the ones that are the most fun and also pay the bills. I've enjoyed my life's job immensely, and others I think I would have enjoyed also require a college degree. I've repeatedly told my kids that a college degree provides a better chance of doing what they want (which may include something that doesn't require a college degree, but without a degree one's options are more limited).</p>

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<p>barron's the article may be a waste of your time but for the audience the article was aimed at it was of great value. It exposes the big lie that enrolling in college is the guaranteed path to job success and happiness.</p>

<p>This is likely to be an fair assessment for those students entering college fully prepared to tackle college level work but for the 75%+ who are not the prospects are less hopeful. And that is the audience that the writer is talking about.</p>

<p>For those student in the bottom 50% academically, it is the responsibility of hs guidance, parents and adult friends to know the truth and honestly lay out some good alternatives. Any of the trades(auto mechanics, electricians, cosmotology, etc) are fine professions for many people. And the medical profession has many jobs suited for two year degree students. And how many mediocre students eschew the option of continuing in a viable family business for college.</p>

<p>The article is definitely not talking about the overwhelming percentage of families and students residing in our weird electronically gated community.</p>

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<p>By focusing on false positives (those we send to college, but who won't make it) in the lower 50% groups, we ignore the true positives or Hits in that group. The only way to fully maximize true positives is to have a rather large number of false positives. Reducing that number means producing more misses (or false negatives). As a society, we have decided it is better to maximize true positives rather than minimize false positives. Reporting the true positive and false positive rates to parents and students is one thing, but if colleges are faced with penalties for false positives, the criterion for admission will more likely change than will anything else, thus removing opportunity from many who can benefit. Though there may be individual stories of hardships, we need to ask if they are outweighed by the individual stories of success for this society.</p>

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<p>Where was that big lie published? I never saw a guarantee anywhere. And happiness?? That is even more ridiculous a claim. It just improves your odds of a higher income. Those numbers are pretty clear. Also it takes a fair amount of smarts to be a good plumber or electrician or mechanic. My mechanic has a BS in chemistry from Harvey Mudd.</p>

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<p>The June issue of The Atlantic Monthly isn't online yet, but contains an article by "Professor X", about the agony of teaching English Literature to students who need college credit in order to move ahead at their jobs. These are people who didn't want to go to college, but need the coursework or degrees in order to get jobs as, say, sheriff's deputies. The students flunk the classes again and again, which means that they are paying for the courses out of their own pockets, since employers reimburse only when you pass. The college where X teaches has no problem with this--more tuition money rolls in this way. X clearly feels that no one is well served by this, that these students really do not need college-level coursework for the type of work they aim to do.</p>

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<p>SlitheyTove: Many community colleges have very good systems in place to help these students. In many cases, although a college may be open admissions, it is not open placement. That is, the student takes a battery of placement exams in reading, writing, and math. Based on those tests, students are placed in the level of instruction that will be most beneficial to them. Often there are reduced or free tuition basic skill programs for really low skilled students (even if they have a HS diploma). These colleges also often have excellent certificate programs in a variety of high demand areas such as health care, as well as transfer possibilities to 4 year schools. It appears to me that more "borderline" students should be counseled to attend community colleges where they may find they can try college with more support and less risk.</p>

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<p>Since there are few parents on CC- at least it seems that way- who don't have a college degree, I want to give my perspective as an adult who didn't graduate from high school, didn't take prereqs for college and while I have taken community college courses- I don't have the requirements to attend a four year university ( not enough language, not enough math) and the freshman level english class I took at the community college, didn't teach me what I need to know to pass the sophomore level english class.
I have resisted taking the freshman one over again, instead retaking the 200 level class over 3 times, and getting an incomplete each time( which may be because I didn't have any accomodations for disabilities)- but it is frustrating.</p>

<p>I believe education is about opening doors.
I believe every student- should have the minimum requirements to enter college in their state at graduation from high school, and if they have disabilities that prevent that, then that can be addressed in their 5 year plan.</p>

<p>Yes you may be lucky enough to get a great job as an apprentice or such right out of high school. I know that the skills needed for many vocational careers are enough to keep those careers satisfying.
However- they don't always pay well . My H for example had virtually all vocational classes in high school. Wood shop, metal shop, auto shop.</p>

<p>You are making great money when you are 25.
However, when you are 35 you are making the same, maybe even less after NAFTA.
When you are 45, you are still making the same, less after inflation.
When you are 55 and you physically cannot do the job anymore you are SOL.
If these construction workers, electricians etc, had college degrees when they entered the workforce, they would be able to move into a different position when they need increased income to support a family or when they had physical limitations.
If they had the prereqs in high school, even if they didn't go to college until they were 30 or 40, they would still be able to do so, instead of being in my position of preferring to attend a university program, but not being able to.</p>

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<p>idid, I'll post the article link when it becomes available--better to get the info from the horse's mouth. Since "Professor X" writes anonymously, we have no insight into what type of institutions he/she teaches at, and what support services are available for students. I'm glad to hear that there are CC's that offer counseling and placement exams, but my personal experience is that it's sadly not always the case. There are also students who don't want/won't ask for that kind of help, and who ignore it when it's offered. An instructor might suggest to a student that it might be a good idea to drop a course, based on early test grades, but the students don't always listen :(</p>

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<p>Some people here seem to be focusing on how the lower 50% academically shouldn't go to college, but perhaps people should also consider if the upper 1% or 5% should go to college rather than just start a company or something as my feeling is that many top students academically/intellectually could make a plenty happy life with a good income without bothering with formal education at all (yes, this even includes K-12). Twain noted that he was successful at being an author in spite of his education, and I suspect many others are successful in part due to dumping formal education and doing what they felt seemed like a good thing to do. The founder of IKEA never went to college, I don't think, and we all have read about plenty like Bill Gates who started at college and dumped or like Sergey Brin who started in a doctoral program and dumped. I am not convinced that the very smartest people don't quite often come to realize, "Hey, I'd be better off not bothering with this formal education path. Time to change trains."</p>

<p>My child ad his heart set on going to college; indeed, he first told us he wanted to take classes at age 6 (as in right then, not 12 years later) and he applied at 8 and was accepted and could have started at 8, but we weren't comfortable with the notion and held him off till he turned 9. He insisted on getting two degrees rather than one, no matter how much his father urged him to just do one bachelor's degree. He graduated at 13 and wanted to go immediately to graduate school, and we were able to bribe him with foreign travel to keep him home another year rather than going directly to graduate school. He was making decent money in his year off from formal education ($200+/hour on some projects as an independent consultant and he had no problem finding work as people who knew him recommended him and he somehow also easily won the only bid he ever made using an online service despite the other 60+ bidders making lower bids as the owner of the company felt our son was the only one who noted that there wasn't truly enough information given to bid the job and asked for more information before submitting a bid). And it was a terrific set-up for him... I remember early in his consulting business, he worked 6 hours and completed a $1,200 project and rather than take on more work that week, he just did things like walk around the lake with a friend and whatever else. He also was able to work from a cruise ship (despite my being against his mixing work and vacation, taking a three week vacation was too much for one client to bare and I could sort of understand that, too) and from his home (for all but one client) and he never had to be at work at a certain time other than for meetings with clients and on business trips. And he gave this all up to go to graduate school. I question the wisdom in that move, frankly, but it is his life and he has wanted a Ph.D. from this particular lab since he was 8 and first visited it and as one friend put it to me in a bar two years ago when our son moved out at age 14 to enter the graduate program, "If the worst thing your kid does as a teen is get a Ph.D., I don't think I'd worry."</p>

<p>But as much as I've questioned our son's decision on opting to take a break from having his own business (and taking a large drop in income, not that the over $80K/year the university is spending on his being there as an RA between tuition, health insurance, business travel expenses, and the stipend they are paying him is terrible compensation, mind you, but it's not like he can save/invest as much per year as he could when working for himself) or to take breaks over the summer to just travel and have fun (as he hasn't been game to do that either), I do at least see him getting experiences that have nothing to do with his own formal education that I like seeing him have (like having discussions with swift people who can understand his research and other ideas in life, going to both teen and undergraduate and graduate student parties/dances, living in a dorm, teaching high school students college level material, teaching graduate students grad course material, etc.). Had he never gone to college or graduate school, I think he would have missed out on a lot of social and other opportunities that it's been nice for him to have.</p>

<p>So there is more to the debate on education than how much one will earn once done (or in it), but how happy a person is on the ride and what a person is learning that isn't formally being taught and opportunities to make friends more likely to "get" you and such. The math isn't all about money. And some of the math might be tough to figure as some of the cons and pros might not even be realized till after the experience is long past.</p>