<p>So should Harvard sue schools calling themselves "The Harvard of the West/South/North etc"?</p>
<p>i dont think so... that essentially just adds to the value of Harvard... it is an admission that Harvard is the standard, and they are merely trying desperately to match that standard... Duke is an amazing example... yet it is evident that Harvard>Duke in just about everything, except collegiate basketball...</p>
<p>Plus, I certainly don't dispute that Harvard has that name brand power. Not a day goes by in which I don't come across a reference of the school. Just a couple hours ago I was watching a re-run of Everybody Hates Chris, and he said something like: "my mom thought that sending me to that school would get me a good education. Not a Harvard-style education, but an education that would at least keep me away from drugs...." In terms of star appeal, I bow to the crimson flag.</p>
<p>My contention is that I think that has a lot to do with the fact that the COFHE survey revealed that Harvard students are some of the least happy students in their 31 school cohort. </p>
<p>There were at least 25 kids from my school this year that applied to Harvard, yet I think that only a handful of them ever visited it before they applied. Also, I'd imagine that a lot of kids choose to attend without researching it very carefully since it seems like such an obvious choice. In that regard, I think that its brand name is somewhat detrimental. There are a lot of kids who get in to Harvard which wouldn't be happy there... do a little math with me.</p>
<p>80% accept admission. It is probably a safe bet that most Harvard admits probably receive very tempting finaind and merit scholarship offers from their state schools and other private universities, so I think it is fair to assume that at least half of those 20% of kids are turning down their Harvard education for such a reason. Which leaves us with the 10%. These are probably the kids who have gotten into other very selective and prestigious colleges (Ivy plus group and a couple others) and due to some special program, a focus on a given department, location etc... chose to attend that school (kids who choose Wharton are a great example).</p>
<p>Other than these kids who have very specific reasons for NOT attending, it seems that everyone else who is offered admission into Harvard goes there - even the vast majority of Yale cross-admits do!!! But, I can't be convince myself that if all these kids had reserached the school without knowledge of the "brand name" that the same percentage would choose to attend. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot more people saying "why shouldn't I go to Harvard" than "why SHOULD I go to Harvard." For the school I don't think that that's particularly healthy, because you aren't necessarily enrolling kids who really want to go to your school, but simply those who didn't find compelling reasons not to attend. I hope im making sense....</p>
<p>Fair point.</p>
<p>... for what its worth, a higher fraction of these allegedly "unhappy" Harvard students stay around to graduate than at any other college or university in the United States of America. That survey you cite involves less than meets the eye, IMHO, since it (1) involved a small number of schools, (2) was based on a small number of individual respondents, (3) involved no school-to-school comparisons whatsoever, (4) involved rather tiny differences, as a practical matter, and (5) didn't take into account that Harvard students notoriously hold their school to a higher standard. Their expectations and sense of entitlement are enormous.</p>
<p>By way of comparison, I like to cite one of the silly Princeton Review "rankings" showing that the BYU library is better than the Yale library - based on a small survey at each school ignoarant of conditions elsewhere. Presumably the Yalies might be grumpy that their library is not open 24-7, while the BYU kids only use the library for picking up dates ... who knows?</p>
<p>THAT, is also a fair point... but unfortunately we have no way of testing either of our hypotheses... Plus, I think that the graduation rate has a lot to do with the fact that a lot of kids there, primarily since they are attending a place which seemed like such a sure bet at first, feel that their disappointment with the school is either 1)normal and existant at most colleges, or 2) a sacrifice that is justified since they feel that their Harvard degree will accomplish much for them in their future lives...</p>
<p>btw just to make something clear: I have voiced my desire to, after attending Chicago, to attend the GSE at Harvard. I do like the school, and my posts and opinions are of an inquisitve nature... i am very interested in all facets of education policy, and preferences of colleges is certainly an area which unites a lot of econ(my major at Chicago) and education (hopefully my field of study in 5 years). I mean all of this constructively.</p>
<p>First you have to define what "happiness" is, and whether everyone seeks it in the same way. Some people no doubt define happiness as drinking beer every night with their buddies. Others are perfectly "happy" to defer present jollies for a larger payoff down the road. </p>
<p>I dare say a survey of the Harvard grads 25 years out will find them considerably more satisfied with their lives ... even "happy" ... despite the fact that their youth may have been scarred by the absence of a student center with bowling alleys and a climbing wall.</p>
<p>There are thousands of people out there who attended Harvard for both college and grad school. I personally know scores of them (there were 80 in my law school class alone) and I have literally yet to meet a single one who valued the grad experience above the undergrad experience or would pick going to grad school at Harvard if they could only pick one.</p>
<p>
Ross</a> Douthat also recently wrote both a book, Privilege:</a> Harvard and the Education of the Ruling Class, and an article for The Atlantic,The</a> Truth About Harvard, that deride the university.
</p>
<p>Douthat is as Harvard-obsessed as anyone I've ever known. His criticisms are those of a lover who fears his passion hasn't been retuned in full measure ... ie, wonders why his sex life wasn't better, why he didn't get into the right club, etc. </p>
<p>But you'll never hear him say he wishes he went to Princeton, like Cornel West!</p>
<p>
Yes, that's my point. It is difficult to take Douthat seriously. From Amazon,
You always amuse me.</p>
<p>People expect Harvard to be perfect in nearly every way because it has been such a huge presence in American for over three centuries. Those who know about the unviersity are aware that the opportunities provided by Harvard are almost limitless. You'll find thousands of students who are unhappy at University X; yet, when one person is unhappy with Harvard, he or she can turn it into a book that people will buy. </p>
<p>I wonder why no one ever bought "I hate the University of Texas - Austin"....probably because it didn't have the word "Harvard" in the title...</p>
<br>
<p>It is difficult to take Douthat seriously</p>
<br>
<p>It would be foolish to make the effort. If you're the kind of kid who spent high school pining to sit at the cheerleaders' table, it's a good bet that you're going to be unhappy in college.</p>
<p>In Douthat's defense, I'm not sure he takes himself that seriously.</p>
<p>
That is so true.</p>
<p>By the way, in America why do do forms always put 'female' before 'male'?</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are thousands of people out there who attended Harvard for both college and grad school. I personally know scores of them (there were 80 in my law school class alone) and I have literally yet to meet a single one who valued the grad experience above the undergrad experience or would pick going to grad school at Harvard if they could only pick one.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Probably because the grad school experience is much less enjoyable than the undergrad experience.</p>
<p>man so many of these topic would yield excellent BA papers...</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Probably because the grad school experience is much less enjoyable than the undergrad experience<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Says who? It certainly wasn't for me. I wouldn't have minded staying in grad school forever. I lived in a nice apartment instead of a crowded and cramped dorm. In grad school there were no more "weed out" courses, and past the first year and a half there were no more required courses at all -- after that I just took seminars and courses that interested me for some reason. I went into the lab and did research every day with a group of smart people that I liked. The hours were long but flexible. I had time to read journals. The research was interesting. I wrote papers to be published in journals. My professor made sure that each grad student got some one-on-one face time to discuss our research with all the distinguished visiting celebrity scientists from our field. I got to fly off to international conferences to present our research results. And for all this I got paid an assistantship, which was not a lot but, compared to the reverse money flow of my undergrad years, was enough make me feel rich. </p>
<p>What's not to like? Compared to undergrad, I thought I was in heaven.</p>
<p>I agree with C. above. It really depends on what makes you happy. For some people, grad school is much more enjoyable because you are no longer having to meet requirements and you can now focus on what you most like. In addition, for some people the relatively smaller number of people in (most) grad programs leads to increased sense of community with those who share your interests. You are likely to also have more contact with students from other countries. I think about half of my closest friends in grad school were from other countries. </p>
<p>It also is worth mentioning that in many grad programs (doctorate at least) you get tuition and stipend paid for. You get to apply for grants that can let you do incredible original research. Basically, you feel a bit less dependent and more of a grown up. That can be a nice change.</p>
<p>However, there is something about undergrad life that I did miss in grad school. There's less of the spontaneity (e.g., unplanned middle of the night parties etc) in grad school. You are much less likely to be living on campus, so it is not so easy to just drop by a friend's place to see if he or she is still up and interested in hanging out.</p>