<p>Haha. Second Byerly battle thread from the dark ages bumped this week. Btw, love your screen name. :)</p>
<p>Wow, how’s this for nostalgia? 
I just re-read more of this than I probably should have, and still can’t believe how much time alumni will spend arguing over the relative merits of their world-leading alma maters.</p>
<p>These are old posts, but I love this one posted from LuciaB in 2009:</p>
<p>Yale, however, will always be seen as second to Harvard. Whenever the absolute perfection of education is ever noted, Harvard is mentioned in popular culture, not Yale.</p>
<p>I guess the Harvard cheater that got past the Harvard admissions board proves just how smart Harvard is! Yale’s no better! My S went to a meeting today that was all hype and gimmick. It was run by students. They called it the International Relations Symposium at Yale. They sent the notice to all teachers who ran global scholars programs in the tri-state area. The prospectus said: “Meet World Class Scholars, Gain an Edge on College Admissions, Find paid international internships at the International Bazaar…no fees, free luncheon, free resume review and admissions consultation and college tour…” It was to start at 9:45 and breakfast was to be served at 10am…and 3 speakers were listed…
It said parents, teachers and advisers invited as well. </p>
<p>This reminded me of those model and talent agency scams. When you get there, you think you will be signed by a someone in the business, but you don’t. You get a sales pitch and then are asked for money. Not the case here. Breakfast? Dunkin donuts. That’s ok because perhaps they’re on a budget. You had to pre-submit your resume and any questions ahead of time. Once it was submitted, and after they told you to contact them with any questions (like did you receive it? or do you have directions?), they went awol. No replies. </p>
<p>Guess what? Suddenly the parents and teachers weren’t allowed in the room of about 20 students. They had to sit in another room until 4:30 with nothing to do (there were only maybe 3 or 4 people there). Most wound up leaving because the International Bazaar with the “international paid internships”? That didn’t exist! This was a student run affair. And the students were running the admissions consultations which lasted all of 5 mins with comments like " you need to get your grades up, get a sport, do more extracurriculars…" Excuse me, but that is not a resume review or admissions consultation. What about some Q & A’s? </p>
<p>My S was NOT impressed with Yale, the way it was run, nor the food. He said you would never imagine that this was an ivy league school! When it comes time for college apps, guess which ivy will immediately be crossed off the list? Yale took smart kids (and there were a group of girls there from a private school that were missing a sports meet to come to this, and were in a special international program), and scammed them. You don’t waste people’s precious time - not the teachers, not the advisers, not the parents and certainly not the students! </p>
<p>Shame on you, Yale!</p>
<p>^ you can’t judge yale by one meeting that was specifically arranged by students (and therefore not that official…)</p>
<p>Guitarman! Talk about nostalgia. Haven’t seen you around here for years. What are you up to these days?</p>
<p>sour<em>lemon</em>1k - are you kidding? Students have absolutely no business contacting high schools and falsely advertising a program? What does that say about the student body? If they can lie on about the details of a symposium, what else are they lying about? They should have consent of the school to put on something of this nature. The covers of the program clearly were changed, and they had the audacity to hand out another one that said “come back to yale - if you liked this IRYS, you will like the Yale Model UN Conference in January.” They said to contact the secretary-general (my kids do model un down at princeton each year) - so you wonder if the secretary-general (and they don’t mean Ban Ki-Moon) is the same person who called themselves the “executive director” of this international relations symposium. They were also advertising their summer ivy scholars program full of more nonsense - BUT THESE YOU HAD TO PAY FOR…I wouldn’t send my child even if they gave need-based financial aid or gave it for free. Two of the three were political classes and the third was another scam for rising hs seniors - how to write, advocate and pursuade in the grand strategy (of what?) - whoever puts these program flyers together is not very literate…and this is Yale? But then again George Bush got in and became Governor and President.</p>
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>You know I always thought that Americans were more open-minded and less-biased. Guess I was wrong. Saying Yale students are not literate is preposterous. Please. (might sound lame - but Yale’s SAT1 CR score median is higher than all the other schools in the US)</p>
<p>MIT’s website does not capitalize most of their menus, and it does look ‘not very professional’ to some super uptight people, but to me I think MIT is a very fun school.</p>
<p>Harvard and Yale both have their merits. No point bashing each other. </p>
<p>From the perspective of an international student, Harvard wins in prestige hands down. (Harvard beats any other university in the world - not only Yale, but Cambridge and Oxford in the UK; Princeton, MIT, Stanford also suffer from Harvard’s unbeatable prestige as well.). But that is NOT to say that Yale is not prestigious. </p>
<p>Yale is also very prestigious, perhaps only trailing behind Harvard and Stanford, about the same as Princeton, and ahead of Oxbridge. And a Yale admit would garner about the same amount of respect a Harvard admit would (in my country), and they get much more respect than an Oxbridge admit.</p>
<p>For people torn between Harvard and Yale:
If you’re into prestige, choose Harvard. Choose Yale if you want a more vibrant and active undergraduate life. (not to say Harvard does not have this at all, but I think Yale is just better than Harvard in this aspect). Also, I would think that Yale DEFINITELY has a better undergrad program. Though, Harvard certainly triumphs when it comes to postgraduate education.</p>
<p>You can’t go wrong with either Harvard or Yale. Both are incredible schools in terms of academics and prestige. Seriously. Choose whichever one you think you like and would enjoy the most.</p>
<p>I beg to offer. All this ivy league stuff is just that fluff…my brother went to Yale grad and my husband and I went to U of P…there is something to be said for Harvard when Adam Wheeler can scam them…their admission process does not work very well…and look at Zuckerberg! He stole the facebook idea from the Winklevoss’s who are talented, respectable men, and I’m so glad they won the lawsuit against him. </p>
<p>There are good and bad in ALL schools, and with the latest surveys of over 90% of high school students cheating because they feel they need to in order to get into a great top-notch college, that says nothing about the morals and values of this country. The colleges say get top grades, top SAT scores and then in the next breath, they tell the kids not to stress, do sports, extracurriculars and community service, like they are superhuman. HS kids are existing on 3-5 hours of sleep whether they are in AP classes or just regular classes in a private school. They are burned out from all the pressure. </p>
<p>I have a psychiatrist friend whose practice now consists of 5 kids alone who are freshman at Ivyies (Cornell and Yale) and realized 3 months into their fall semester that this was not their dream, but their parents - two of the 5 can’t even articulate a sentence. The fact is, there are very wealthy people in this country, and I’ve seen it over and over again, whose kids are NOT bright, but they write a check and get them into an ivy. They take from the rich to give to the very poor, but the middle class get squeezed. The colleges say they are “need blind,” but don’t believe it for a minute! Half the parents in my S’s school all went to either harvard undergrad or grad school, and they have stories. </p>
<p>One poster on CC talked about how he was in Harvard medical school with a guy who had cheated his way all the way up - I don’t get it at all myself. Cheating in other areas, is one thing, but to cheat in medical school seems insane. There are lives at stake - however, he didn’t name the person but just said if you ever need neurosurgery (of all things), don’t go to a practice on X and X in this city…he came as close to naming him as he could without substantial liability.</p>
<p>I’m just saying, there are so many great colleges in this world, and students should not be pressured by the fake rankings in US News and World Reports (use Forbes people tend to like their standards better, but who really knows for sure), and the hype of these schools. Everyone gets sucked in by the name…the name means nothing - you can get just as great an education at a lot of good liberal arts colleges out there, but no one wants to say their kid went to XYZ school. To say Harvard beats Oxford, Cambridge and MIT to me is just absurd. The former might be parallel, but the brain power walking around MIT can blow anyone away.</p>
<p>Here’s the link to the Harvard cheater:
[Accused</a> Harvard cheat Adam Wheeler pleads not guilty | News.com.au](<a href=“http://www.news.com.au/world/accused-harvard-cheat-adam-wheeler-pleads-not-guilty/story-e6frfkyi-1225868464010]Accused”>http://www.news.com.au/world/accused-harvard-cheat-adam-wheeler-pleads-not-guilty/story-e6frfkyi-1225868464010)</p>
<p>MIT people are smarter than Harvard students? That’s just a stereotype just because of MIT’s geek culture (which is totally awesome), and because of the name “Institute of Technology”. </p>
<p>Lets go to Mathematics,
[William</a> Lowell Putnam Mathematical Competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lowell_Putnam_Mathematical_Competition]William”>William Lowell Putnam Mathematical Competition - Wikipedia),</p>
<p>The following table lists Teams with First place finishes (as of 2010 competition):
Harvard 27-MIT 6</p>
<p>Is MIT really better? I wouldn’t dare say. Is Harvard better? Math is just one of the many things in the world. All in all, Harvard and MIT are about equal. </p>
<p>The delusion that Oxbridge is very good is also prevalent because of the fact that they are indeed incredible schools (more so than MIT, Harvard etc), about 100-200 years ago. </p>
<p>Today? Definitely not.</p>
<p>Oxbridge today takes in tonnes of ‘not-so-qualified’ international students because they want our money. </p>
<p>US universities on the other hand, do not need to do this kinda stuff, HYPM is full-need and need-blind, if they admit us, they are the ones who are gonna pay for us to come. In the UK, they just want your money - you have to be adequately good of course, but mediocre as compared to other EU/UK students (who pay home fees, much much much less than internationals pay).</p>
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<p>I’m not going to try to address most of your angry rant, medavinci, but this is pure myth. Unless the parents are donating enough money to, say, build a new library or aquatic center, no check can get a kid – bright or not – into an Ivy or other elite college.</p>
<p>WJB how’s $20 million? Yep, and I won’t say which two ivyies each got that amount, and that is just 1 person. </p>
<p>JohanKrist, I have to beg to differ with you on Oxbridge for sure and American schools. It is the American schools who will take all the foreign students, because many of them, not all, can pay in full (Asia and the Middle East; it’s a known fact - that is why you will also see a lot of schools opening in Middle Eastern and Asian countries; it’s profitable). </p>
<p>My friend’s daughter goes to a very rigorous boarding school, one of the top, if not the top in America. She has a stellar record, and they will not admit her to Oxford until her very last AP tests are completed and the scores are sent. She also got into Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell but didn’t make Brown (her only reject).</p>
<p>Dear medavinci, I was talking about HYMP (who are needblind and full-need), not other American schools. Oxbridge vs mediocre American schools? Of course Oxbridge wins. </p>
<p>By admission rate statistics alone, Cambridge is 25% admit (around the same as Berkeley), perhaps >25% for internationals. In my country around 30 people get into Oxford and Cambridge each year. HYPSM? Two at most. (of course admission rates are not a very good yardstick, but still.)</p>
<p>P.S. It’s called a “conditional offer” that requires you to complete your A levels/AP/IB before you can get into the university (in your friend’s daughter case, Oxford.)
Sorry if this sounds a little pompous, but their conditional offers are incredibly easy to fulfill, A*AA in A levels, are you kidding? Walk around my school and point randomly at any of those A level students and you have them. Even Imperial College London (you probably never heard of this school) has a higher requirement.
Conditional offer pretty much means admit. </p>
<p>(exception are pure science course, which Oxbridge are very good at - requires A<em>A</em>A*) </p>
<p>My friend got into Trinity College in Cambridge for Mathematics, he applied to MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton. All rejected. Why? Because he was only good in academics (which is the ONLY thing Oxbridge looks for), while the top school in the US demands much more than a study machine - which I think is good.</p>
<p>I digress. I think I made my point. This was supposed to be a Harvard/Yale discussion, which I voiced out in my previous posts.</p>
<p>medavinci (#252), The timing of British college admissions is quite different than those in the US. In fact, sometimes they have been known to release acceptances up until the week before school starts. And that’s not including their WL; this is regular admissions.</p>
<p>Good to know, thanks! </p>
<p>Do the European schools require the amount of sports, extracurriculars and community service America does?</p>
<p>I don’t know about other European schools, as I have only applied to the UK, look at the UCAS form. Personal details, academic record, work experience (I left this empty and still got admitted to all the schools I applied to), one personal statement. Done deal. Extracurriculars, community service and sports are not asked at all.</p>
<p>After I did CommonApp (it is very very very annoying and difficult for us internationals to complete it), UCAS was as easy as breathing.</p>
<p>Re post 252: I suspect that a student whose family donates $20 million is indeed hooked. Not too many development cases like that – contrary to the intimation of your earlier post. And if a school wants to admit one unqualified kid in exchange for millions of dollars that can be used to fund institutional priorities that benefit the entire student body, I’m okay with it.</p>
<p>@cosar: Hmm, I meant to get back to you before another argument broke out. Looks like I waited too long ;)</p>
<p>I graduated from Yale last May, and still miss it tremendously. It was without a doubt the right choice for me. I’m now at Cambridge (the real one!) doing Part III Maths, a one-year Masters in theoretical physics (“applied maths”, as they call it here). I have an offer to do a PhD here so it seems I’ll be staying…if I can get my act together in time for exams, at least! :)</p>
<p>Guitarman, great to hear. I’m not surprised you loved Yale, though I have no doubt you would have loved Harvard had you ended up there. Which is why these Yale v. Harvard threads (even one five years old) are a bit silly. Quite entertaining though, even five years later. It also sounds like you’ve landed incredibly well for your graduate work - I won’t even ask as I know it’s way beyond my capacity to understand. </p>
<p>A little ironic that the reincarnation of this thread seems to be turning into an argument about the relative merits of Oxbridge v. top American universities, a subject on which you are now uniquely situated to comment. ;)</p>
<p>" By admission rate statistics alone, Cambridge is 25% admit (around the same as Berkeley), perhaps >25% for internationals."</p>
<p>Ohh dear… JohanKrist, pls search the net before saying anything… Pls:) The Oxbridge acceptance rate is indeed around 20-25%. It must be said, however, that THERE IS NO WAY TO APPLY TO OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGRE AT THE SAME YEAR. Simply no way. It is therefore no surprise that their acceptance rates are higher than, say, Princeton’s as about 70-80% of the undergrads are comes from the UK, and they face with the decision, that were they want to apply (for international students, it’s a smaller problem, for obvious reasons), Cambridge or Oxford. It stands to reason that the Oxbridge acceptance rates are higher because of this simple fact. Also, people in the UK can’t apply to as many universities they want, just, as far as I know, five, whereas in the US, if you want, and have the money, you can apply to dozens of schools. While comparing the Oxbridge acceptance rates with Berkeley surely looks nice on paper, it must however be remembered that the pool of applicants splits into two. In the US, there’s no problem with applying to HYPSM…more applications, more rejections, lower acceptance rates. Bamm.</p>
<p>I fail to see how this connected to Yale vs Harvard, thought.</p>