<p>OK, I'm the applicant's mom here, a few years older than 18. One of my friends' sons went off to start college at Pomona this fall and encountered an interesting program. The new freshmen were told that for the first two weeks of school they were expected NOT to drink. The RA's and whoever else was around to supervise were going to be very strict with anyone who was caught during these two weeks. I think perhaps the students were actually asked to sign a statement that they wouldn't drink for two weeks (not sure of this). The college did this based on research that students tend to really go crazy during their first weeks on campus AND that they don't know yet whom they can trust. From what my friend said, the program seemed to be successful at cutting down on serious problems during the early weeks. I don't know whether it has had any longer term affect or not.</p>
<p>Mini, what is your view on the social norms approach to campus drinking? My daughter (an abstainer...for now, at least) is applying to HWS, and one of their professors is a noted researcher/advocate of the social norms approach. When we visited last week, there were posters all over campus about drinking from a social norms perspective (e.g. 90% of students surveyed reported they had never committed acts of vandalism/destruction of property while drinking...followed by data of the number of students surveyed, etc.) HWS has had a reduction in alcohol-related problems as far as I can determine, but I haven't been able to tell if this is from their social norms approach, the initiative and focus of their (relatively new) president, some other factors, or a combination thereof.</p>
<p>It's really as simple as "we always want what we can't have."</p>
<p>Soooo, I'm a student at a prestigious liberal arts school, and I guess I'm one of those "overprivileged" kids as well. Anyhow, why do we drink? Because we can, because it's fun, because for the vast majority of people that do it, it isn't harmful. I go out with my friends between 2 and 5 times a month I'd say, and yes, I drink to get drunk. I feel safe on my campus, though, and I feel safe around my friends and I know my limits. I KNOW that that sounds terrible and irresponsible and dangerous to a lot of parents here, but I guess that's my point--it doesn't really matter what you think now, because at college, we're really looking after ourselves and learning how to live without our parents supervising our every move. On that note, my mother knows that I drink and she knows how much I drink and she accepts that it's just a part of college life. It's fun to loosen up with alcohol, dance without feeling like a dork, just laugh at things, because honestly, at these "prestigious" schools with "overprivileged" students, there is a lot of work and a lot of stress. I have, however, seen people black out, and I think that that's scary. I feel that I know how much I can drink in order to have fun while still staying safe; I also would never go out alone or with people I didn't know. So essentially, we drink for the same reason that people have drunk for thousands of years: it often makes socializing a lot more fun.</p>
<p>I've seen kids who acted out sexually when intoxicated, and then suffer regret.</p>
<p>By coincidence, this news item was posted on the London Times online:</p>
<p>Binge-drink women may lose right to claim rape
By Frances Gibb, Legal Editor, Simon de Bruxelles and Sam Coates
[quote]
WOMEN who are raped while drunk face losing the chance to bring their attackers to justice after a legal ruling on the eve of new licensing laws.</p>
<p>A High Court judge yesterday threw out the case of a student who claimed that she was raped while drunk and unconscious on the basis that drunken consent is still consent.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Whatever we may think of the judge's decision, young women do get raped while drunk. This happened to a young woman I know. She was unable to reconstruct exactly what had happened and thus lost her case for getting the rapist punished. The anger she felt at his continuing presence was only matched by the anger she felt against herself.</p>
<p>1) Students think that these are the best years of their lives and for this reason will do just about anything they won't be able to do when the graduate.
2) Get wit da opposite gender
3) Make friends
4) Forget all about being a nobody in high school and replace these memories and behaviors with new ones.</p>
<p>I drink, but not a great deal.</p>
<p>"Mini, what is your view on the social norms approach to campus drinking? My daughter (an abstainer...for now, at least) is applying to HWS, and one of their professors is a noted researcher/advocate of the social norms approach."</p>
<p>The social norms approach has proven to be effective, but only on campuses where the culture isn't built around drinking to begin with (which is why Wechsler and the folks at the Harvard School of Public Health aren't particularly thrilled about it.) It depends on being able to show that a thorough majority of folks don't binge drink, etc. So it will likely work where drinking is lower than the norm to begin with (Stanford or Swarthmore being good examples) but not at schools where it is higher (Williams, Univ. of Colorado, etc.) There have been some remarkable results at Western Washington University (where, however, it is combined with town police interventions in the first month of school - they call it "the green bus"), and at Hobart & William Smith, among others.</p>
<p>Pomona's approach, cited above, has been multipronged, though I don't have any data as to the results, except that it has indeed seemed to cut down on alcohol emergencies and sexual assaults. (There were 70,000 rapes last year on college campuses, (and about 8 times as many sexual assaults), and in 28% of cases, the woman was NOT intoxicated (but the guy(s) often were). This makes many college campuses much less safe than virtually any neighborhood in the nation, but it isn't all that surprising - college kids are in the prime age group for all sorts of criminal activity.) Pomona does indeed try to ban ALL alcohol in the first 2-3 weeks of school. Hard alcohol is totally banned on the south campus, where first- and second-year students live - and RAs are authorized to pour it out if they see it. Their honor code has a "Good Samaritan" provision - a student who sees another student in trouble from drinking is required to call the campus emergency number or can be subject to disciplinary action him/herself.</p>
<p>The point is that binge, heavy, and dangerous drinking do not inevitably have to be part of college life (note that I am NOT a proponent of abstinence), and for the vast majority of college students it is not.</p>
<p>When schools are strict students have to go to lengths to get drunk, but trust me they are going to go to these lengths. Whether it be just getting wasted in dorms, going to sketchy off-campus or frat parties, or other strange places students are going to get drunk. Many universities treat students like children, and think they are not able to handle drinking. I go to a school in nyc where the administration has a much more liberal attitude toward drinking, and as a result there is more responsible drinking. You dont see students being taken to the hospital for alcohol poisoning like at many state schools. At age 18 students are out living the nightlife in new york city, which is not always all about getting drunk. I am a sophomore and I have perfect bar etiquette, know my limits, drink reasonably responsibly, and understand social drinking. I also know most of the hot spots in nyc. My administration treats students like adults, and as a result they behave as adults. Strict rules/laws just make drinking more difficult, as a result drinking becomes more dangerous and there is less responsibility. I'm sorry but I am a firm believer in allowing people into bars with a fake ID. If you dont, turning 21 is such a novelty that you are going to drink yourself into an oblivion that night (maybe getting alcohol poisoning and dying as many students have in past years). Also, these college bars that are all students that have just turned 21 are going to be students who do not know how to behave in bars, and are just going to get drunk and rowdy. (I feel even worse for the bartenders because they probably dont know how to tip either!) Anyway, my point is that I feel that if students are treated like adults they will behave more like adults. Maybe its a byproduct of new york city, but its better this way. I speak from experience because I transferred to my current university from a state school with very strict enforcement, leading to probably many more problems.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, the original question..</p>
<p>Why is drinking so accepted at college?</p>
<p>Is that to say drinking is not accepted in society. Drinking is such a part of American society, and getting drunk is as well (thats where america differs from europe). Is that a bad thing? I dont think so, lots of adults drink. Alcohol is a good thing when used correctly, its a social lubricant. How about this one parents:
How would you like to go to your next high school reunion or wedding reception and find that alcohol wasn't being served? The reunion would probably be the epitome of awkwardness and the wedding just wouldn't be as much fun. If students can behave as adults they should be treated that way, and my school definitely demonstrates that.</p>
<p>I am a high school senior, and I dont drink, yet pretty much all of my friends (with a few exceptions) are getting drunk 2 nights every week. It seems that if you have to drink to really be accepted in high school, it can only be worse in college. Also it seems impossible that the parents dont find out that their kids are drinking, since they have been doing it every weekend for the last 2 years. I have been to a few parties where the majority of kids are drunk, but I dont see the point of staying because nobody is going to remember anything I do anyway. So the vast majority of the weekends I find activities that dont involve alcohol, which can be hard to do around here. I guess my reason for not drinking is that I dont see the point to it. How do you know if you had fun if you cant remember what you did? Thats what I always tell my friends, and they kinda laugh at it because we are good friends and they dont hold it against me. Reading these boards makes me worried that I will be forced to drink to be accepted in college, which doesnt make me very happy.</p>
<p>What you've likely described is an urban school, with lots to do off campus, little in the way of fraternities, no football team or a school where athletics is not a signficant spectator thing, likely a smaller percentage of students paying $160k per year, and a higher percentage of minority students, (and maybe more commuters and/or older studetns) all of which, individually and combined, would lead to lower rates of binge, heavy, or problem drinking REGARDLESS of the attitude or actions of the school administration. </p>
<p>You are correct that students can and will drink wherever they are. You are less correct in assuming that what follows from this is that college administrations are helpless to impact rates of binge and heavy drinking on campus, and problems related to it. Many have, but they have to have the will to do so.</p>
<p>I can name a dozen schools where strict rules and laws have resulted in less problem drinking, and I can name another dozen without strict rules and laws that have taken other actions that have led to less problem drinking. There are dozens of potential approaches to the problem, but the first step, like that necessary for an alcoholic, is admitting that you have one.</p>
<p>ckmets13,
You can be accepted in college without drinking. Every college has a number of students who do not drink, and a bunch more who only drink occasionally. The trick is to find ways to meet those kids who have values similar to yours. It might be through a religious group on campus, through an interest group or volunteer work, or just through noticing who in the dorm does NOT go out drinking. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my son tried drinking and partying when he first started college, but it only took him a few weeks to realize he did not like that kind of life. He does not drink at all now, has met other people who like to do the things he likes, and is quite happy and socially active. It may take a little more work to find those people at first, but it can be done. You will be much happier being accepted in a group that has values like yours than in a crowd with far different values.</p>
<p>dstark and TheDad,</p>
<p>all those events are not late at night. They would all be done by 10 or 11, and then the night is still young.</p>
<p>anyway, you should be allowed to drink when you're 18. You can do everything else, it's ridiculous when you think about it. The laws work fine in other countries with lower drinking ages. In some countries you can drink before you can get a driver's license.</p>
<p>Of course there's a difference between drinking and binge drinking. People who binge drink are stupid, and if there was a rule that after you threw up for the 4th or 5th time in the same night you died, I wouldn't mind at all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In some countries you can drink before you can get a driver's license.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I suspect most of my fellow parents would join me in being perfectly willing to trade a return to the 18 year old drinking age in exchange for raising the driving age to 21!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I suspect most of my fellow parents would join me in being perfectly willing to trade a return to the 18 year old drinking age in exchange for raising the driving age to 21!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>yeah, then they'd just have to sneak out to drive :rolleyes: ......oh wait, my oldest son already did that one
(and crashed his friend's parent's car in the process.....and destroyed a tree in a yard in our neighborhood....and spent the next 10 months paying for the damage....)</p>
<p>"I suspect most of my fellow parents would join me in being perfectly willing to trade a return to the 18 year old drinking age in exchange for raising the driving age to 21."</p>
<p>Why? Because the parents of a bunch of kids high up on the entitlement index lack parenting skills, and their kids enjoy smearing feces on the walls of colleges with billion dollar endowments and can't control their sexual instincts, while others lower down the food chain have to DRIVE to get to college daily, or DRIVE to get to work at minimum wage jobs so that the wealthier kids can enjoy the privilege? What you smokin'?</p>
<p>Why? Because teenage driving is probably about the most dangerous thing going.</p>
<p>Also, the rationale for raising the drinking age was to prevent driving under the influence by teenagers. There are two ways to skin that cat.</p>
<p>I do not believe that raising the driving age would disproportionately impact low-income teenagers.</p>
<p>Kids use alcohol because they see that other kids are having so much fun in being drunk. Look at the thread with more than 40,000 hits and you discover who is having fun. </p>
<p>How about this thought: Anyone caught seeking or who has a fake ID that alters age, appearance, residency status, or financial status, is subject to any Homeland Security Laws!</p>
<p>"I do not believe that raising the driving age would disproportionately impact low-income teenagers."</p>
<p>Yeah, right. When's the last time you spent 10 minutes on a community college campus? (I do, weekly.) You won't find a bunch of binge-drinking, feces-smearing, sexually assaultive males. You will find a campus that makes Swarthmore - with its 30% binge drinkers -- look like the set for Fellini's Satyricon. And you will find students holding down two jobs to pay for their education, and often to support their families, and driving back and forth between those jobs and their college education on a daily basis.</p>
<p>You are so far out of touch with reality....</p>
<p>The reality is that most folks, including most individuals under the age of 21, drink. I don't see anyone promoting abstinence around here. But I'm so surprised that folks look for a legal solution (and the repeal of a law that has saved tens of thousands of lives) because a bunch of college presidents can't figure out how to handle a bunch of incipient alcoholics (who often engage in criminal behavior that, if it occurred outside the college walls, would land them in the state pen) who suffer the results of their well-heeled parents' seeming indifference.</p>
<p>"How would you like to go to your next high school reunion or wedding reception and find that alcohol wasn't being served? The reunion would probably be the epitome of awkwardness and the wedding just wouldn't be as much fun. If students can behave as adults they should be treated that way, and my school definitely demonstrates that".</p>
<p>johnb1234, I would have no problem if alcohol isn't served at any function. I don't drink. Well OK. I might have a glass of wine every 2 years.</p>