Why is drinking so acceptable at college?

Parents Forum
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<p>Mini. Give me a break already. </p>

<p>The trading of the drinking age for a 21 year old driving age was a humorous quip. Humor that I thought any of us gray-haired parents who have been through the terror of teaching a 16 year old to drive and actually handing them the keys to go solo would appreciate.</p>

<p>I intended it more as a hypothetical proposition for those advocating an 18 year old drinking age to think about especially because it highlights the seriously dangerous linkage between drinking and driving. I bet there wouldn't be many takers among the college-age crowd.</p>

<p>It's purely hypothetical. The driving age will be raised time and time again before there is any consideration of lowering the drinking age.</p>

<p>BTW, I did not say that raising the driving age to 21 wouldn't impact low-income students. I said that it wouldn't disproportionally impact low-income students. It would certainly impact the mobility of all teenagers who previously had access to a car and (hopefully) insurance.</p>

<p>BTW, what makes you think I don't know kids who work two jobs and commute to the local community college?</p>

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<p>This happens every time one of the kids of my Mormon friends gets married. And it's fine - everyone has a good time. It's perfectly possible to have fun with a clear head. It's just a different sort of fun.</p>

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<p>Can anyone from Canada (or with experience from Canadian colleges) shed any light on this subject? I know that Quebec has a minimum drinking age of 18 and would be curious if other provinces are similar. What is the experience with binge drinking at Canadian schools?</p>

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<p>dvan, I don't know about the binge drinking in canada, but what concerns me isn't just binge drinking. At many schools, party time is Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. Kids are drinking vodka mixed with something else three nights a week and not thinking it is a big deal, because the alcohol is masked with orange juice, lemonade, or something else. They are drinking too much even if it isn't so-called binge drinking.</p>

<p>It also concerns me that to get rid of awkwardness, kids drink. The thinking that you have to drink to have fun also concerns me. The idea that to be popular, it is necessary to drink, is not my favorite idea either. If these are adult traits, these are traits that shouldn't be emulated by young people.</p>

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<p>Mini, I have not read all of this thread but it seems that your remarks time and time again, tie EVERYTHING to the income level of kids' parents. As well, it comes across as prejudicial in a negative way against any student who is not low income and stereotypical judgements abound. </p>

<p>Just the remarks about who needs to drive and who doesn't is a good example. I hear you about the kids going to community college and needing a car/license to go to their minimum wage jobs. Where I live, as well as my own children who are not low income but are not well heeled either, the kids really do need a license as well. All their activities and yes, jobs, require driving. A car is basically a necessity here. If anything a poor kid might need the license less as he/she might not be able to have his own car and has to be driven by parents anyway (though many kids here have cars, the poor kids included). In any case, the images you give of one set of kids compared to another are not entirely accurate and are full of stereoptypes. </p>

<p>The bringing up of the driving age was just something all parents could relate to as far as "risks" and all. You continually weave in the arguments of the low income students into each discussion, while making everyone else sound quite negatively. I think there are a RANGE of kids on campuses and not every stereotype you give fits each category of kids and their parents' incomes. I know lots of poor kids who hang out and get drunk in my town. Some better off kids may as well. A lot of the best students here do not...they are busy in activities and schoolwork and are not heavy drinkers, and this crosses income boundaries. The need for a license here also crosses all income boundaries. At the local grocery store, lots of my kids' peer work....some are lower income but some are at least middle class. My own kids have waited tables and bussed tables and needed cars to get to these jobs. My kids are not poor; they simply held jobs. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Mini, I just read post #15 and you are saying that the vast majority of lower income kids, whether in college or not, are not heavy drinkers, just moderate ones, but that the vast majority at prestigious colleges drink more heavily and that the ones on even those campuses that don't, come from the lower economic class. I don't entirely buy your argument. </p>

<p>Just in my little town, the kids who spend their time getting drunk and hanging out, are the kids who are NOT going to college or not to prestigious ones. Yes, kids at presitgious colleges ALSO drink but I do not see that higher income kids drink more heavily on those campuses, nor that kids at presitgious schools drink more heavily. I have a niece at Penn State and I think her partying behavior there is way way heavier than my kids at their more selective schools. I also see what how many of she and her friends in high school spent their weekends and it was not what my kids were doing (they did not party in HS or drink). A lot of the kids drinking alot here are the ones who were not good students in fact, and not bound for more selective colleges. I also don't think the breakdown once on campus at my kids' colleges as to who drinks more than someone else is by economic class. </p>

<p>I also do not think the effects of not being able to drive is disproportionately more of a problem for the low income kids over the middle or higher income kids. </p>

<p>Besides all of that, there sure are a lot of kids in between the rich and the low income and putting kids into groups like this and attributing their drinking behaviors or driving needs in one way is just very stereotypical. My kids know a lot of rich kids (not from home but at college and such) and a lot of poor kids (many in our community) and there are drinkers and pot smokers amongst both groups. </p>

<p>Also some of the schools with a big party reputation are not even the so called "prestigious" colleges. Schools with that reputation include: Indiana, Penn State, Clemson, UNH, SUNY Albany, University of Colorado (Boulder), etc.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>personally I would not have a problem with lowering the drinking age to 18 ( and legalizing marijuana) and raising the driving age to 18.
I think students priority should be school- low income students even more so- they shouldn't be working two jobs they should be concentrating on school- I would pressure legislators to provide better funding for low income families so that students were not obligated to contribute to their families finances while they were still minors.</p>

<p>I admit that for many areas- limiting driving is not feasible- however my 23 year old still doesn't have a liscense- she uses public transportation/bike- which isn't always recommended in many areas- but still that is my perspective.
I drink but I could easily do without- I actually did not want ANY alcohol at all at my wedding reception ( not mormon- unitarian and inlaws thought that was same thing!) but my inlaws against my wishes brought a case of champagne-( kinda set the tone for our relationship)
When I was in high school- the lower income/less academic students drank much more than the students who actually attended school.
additionally- since alcohol was regulated by state- illegal drugs were much easier to get- and were used more frequently than a lot of alcohol.( at big parties though it was always easy to find someone to buy a keg of beer)
At my daughters college- the academics are such that you would really be shooting yourself in the foot if you partied to excess- it just isnt' doable no matter how brillant you are.</p>

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<p>EmeraldKity, I'm with you regarding I would not be opposed to lowering the drinking age to 18. I would be opposed to raising the driving age (kids really benefit and need to be able to drive where I live....kids of ALL income levels, that is). I think if people can vote or go to war at age 18, they should be able to legally drink. They certainly drink at college, legally or not anyway. </p>

<p>I also have similar observations to you that when I was in high school, as well as my own kids that either lower income OR less academically inclined students drank more and hung out more.</p>

<p>Like you, the academic programs my kids are in are such that you really could not party to excess and have that kind of time available either. Their requirements and their time constraints would not allow for it. They can and likely do have a drink at a party or bar or wherever, but I do not believe either gets drunk and certainly has no time for this on a weeknight or to sleep late and be hung over. I know their schedules and what they do each day and night and the rigor of what they must keep up with and being a hardcore party person or binge drinker just would not cut it or be doable.</p>

<p>One kid is an athlete with seven practices per week. Some are extremely early in the morning, and weekends are included. She also has rigorous coursework and is doing well in these courses. She also has an architectural studio course requiring numerous hours late at night. She has fun. I am sure she has a drink at a party. She has no desire or time to get drunk. Having to get up at 6 AM or to be away all weekend for races and to physically do what she does and to get A's at an Ivy League school, volunteer and what not, just is not doable as a heavy drinker.</p>

<p>The other kid has a schedule that is not typical of college students, way more hours of classes, all day long, various evening requirements, and weekend ones as well. She has fun too and I am sure has had drinks. She does not have a lot of free time, has some very early mornings and has to work late at night when she finally gets home. There would be no way to keep this pace or meet her requirements (let alone get the As) if she were to binge drink or to drink heavily. </p>

<p>I don't think Mini's depiction that breaks it down by income level or prestige of the college and and even who at the prestige colleges choose to drink is necessarily the case.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Another vote for lowering the drinking age to 18. I am aware, or at least mini has made me aware, that the statistics show the higher drinking age has helped with the auto accident statistics. But I am thinking that the binge culture has grown and am thinking/hoping that the Designated Driver culture has also grown. So maybe lower drinking age would not need to be accompanied by return to high drink-drive teen stats. </p>

<p>I think a major effort to create a Drink Responibly culture might be able to work in the way that Designated Driver effort has worked.</p>

<p>I realize that this is all pie-in-the-sky theory on my part; and might be shot down by more knowledgeable folks. But it's a thought.</p>

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<p>I do agree that desginated driver has worked
for example even among kids who shouldn't be drinking period- ( in high school) I do hear them talking about who is going to be the designated driver this week and who was last week.
thats a step in the right direction anyway- now if we could just get them to think that Oral sex- is a * little* more involved than kissing.</p>

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<p>"I don't think Mini's depiction that breaks it down by income level or prestige of the college and and even who at the prestige colleges choose to drink is necessarily the case."</p>

<p>Kids at prestige colleges, or for the most part, even the large state universities don't drive to class or work 5 or 6 days a week. Those at the commuter schools, by definition, do. That much is obvious. I'm surprised that's even a topic of conversation.</p>

<p>We also have pretty good data (the plural of anecdote is not evidence) on binge, heavy, and problem drinking by age, income class, ethnicity, by kind of school or college attended. </p>

<p>If you think binge drinking isn't tied to income level, it's easy to do a simple test. Figure out what 8 hard-liquor drinks costs (the minimum definition of binge drinking actually works out to roughly that) once or twice a week, plus heavy drinking at a minimum of two-a-day. </p>

<p>What the folks at the Harvard School of Public Health found was among the most significant risk factors for heavy drinking is "residential college" (independent of all the other factors, including income.). It would obvious that grouping large numbers of 18-21 year olds in a confined living space with extra time (and money) on their hands would lead to obvious results, relative to those not grouped in similar living spaces. No blame attached. But just asked yourself, if you believe income is not an associated factor: who, exactly, attends residential colleges (any kind) and who attends commuter schools? It is not (only) income per se that results in heavier drinking, but the opportunities afforded by it.</p>

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<p>mini, you have the data and I don't, but I see things all the time that don't make economic sense.</p>

<p>A friend of mine has a business that employs many low income people. These people drink Red Bull like it is water. My friend thinks Red Bull is too expensive. :)</p>

<p>I see people commute 50 miles each way to make an extra couple of bucks per hour. If they figured their transportation costs and their loss of time, they would see that they are actually making less money than if they worked closer to home. Yet, they do it anyway.</p>

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<p>I dont get the connection to binge drinking and hard liquor-
yes a shot of dalwhinnie is significantly more than a 6-pack of PBR- but what are college students more likely to drink?
Do students really have time to go off campus and drink 2 times during the week as well as on weekends?</p>

<p>
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A study in the September 2005 issue of Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research compares students' actual blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) against their self-reported consumption and estimated BACs. The results indicate that students might actually overestimate rather than underestimate their levels of drinking.

[/quote]
I found this very interesting- do most of the studies actually measure blood alcohol levels or is it self reported?</p>

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<p>Anyway, the question is "why is drinking acceptable at colleges?" Or perhaps, more tightly asked, "why do people drink heavily at college?"</p>

<p>I think the answers are pretty much the same for why adults drink heavily, but are exacerbated by the environment.
- People enjoy altered states of consciousness. (which I think is perfectly valid, validated by history, and why I am not an advocate of abstinence.) It allows people to let their normal social guards down.
- Genetic predisposition - I can't drink heavily even if I want to - I fall asleep. For other folks, 5 drinks just get's them started.
- Social and, especially, sexual awkwardness - Sex has become such an awkward thing for adolescents in this culture (no less adults.) Women are sexually mature three years earlier than they were 100 years ago; men about 2 1/2 years. Yet, we treat them in our institutions (i.e. high schools) as if nothing has changed. The result is that late teenagers are sexually "explosive" and awkward at the same time (and the number of rapes and sexual assaults on campuses would seem to point in that direction.) Alcohol takes the edge off.
- Social pressures - the mentors for many young folks, especially on residential campuses, are older students. Younger students may often feel pressure to drink from older ones, or simply more experienced drinkers among their peers.
- Cultural forces - certain spectator sports are culturally associated with heavy drinking. Those sports are concentrated at residential colleges. Advertising, etc.
-- Availability - two factors at work: easy to obtain (false IDs, liquor stores that look the other way, a ready store of older "legal" friends"; and disposable income to purchase.
-- Indifferent parenting - many older teenagers are merely extending patterns learned in the earlier years.
-- Shieldedness from risk - if junior advisors know they won't be prosecuted when one of their charges whom they supplied with alcohol goes to the hospital; if drunken male students can be pretty sure they won't be charged with rape even if they commit the same offense that would have landed them in prison if it occurred on the outside; if defacement of property is met by a slap on the wrist; if campuses are free from outside police involvement, all that is left to control is a sense of shame, which is often a peculiarly adult emotion;
-- Risk-averse college administrators - the goose that laid the golden egg for many is having one's campus known as a "fun place"; "work hard/play hard" (as if playing is synonymous with heavy alcohol use); alumni who revel in alcohol and don't want their colleges known as particularly straitlaced places; administrators who don't wish to incur the wrath of their paying customers.</p>

<p>I would note that, with the exception of the first two and including the one on parenting, where college administrators can in fact ask parents for help), all of these can be mitigated by colleges if they choose, and there are several dozen strategies that can address any of the above. But first, one has to decide there is a problem at all.</p>

<p>"I dont get the connection to binge drinking and hard liquor-
yes a shot of dalwhinnie is significantly more than a 6-pack of PBR- but what are college students more likely to drink?
Do students really have time to go off campus and drink 2 times during the week as well as on weekends?"</p>

<p>Most "pregaming" involves very heavy use of hard liquor, usually imbibed in a very short period of time. It usually occurs on- rather than off-campus. "Heavy drinkers" are defined as those who have a minimum of 2 drinks a day every day (in addition to whatever binge drinking takes place) - at my alma mater, 29% of the students so report. Of these, 79% reported "pregaming" at least 6 times in the past year.</p>

<p>So to try to answer your questions: most students likely don't go off campus to drink; drinking days of many campuses extent from Thursday through Sunday, at a minimum; most of the dangerous behaviors associated with heavy drinking are associated with hard liquor; and strategies that have been tried at some campuses are to limit the flow of hard liquor without limiting the flow of beer.</p>

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<p>Mini, I think you took my quote out of context. I was saying that the break down of who drinks or not is not just by income level (referring to an earlier post of yours that said that lower income students drank less than higher income ones) and then you also said that within a prestige university, that the higher income students drank more than the lower income ones within that setting. That was what I was talking about there. Now you tied it to who drives and who commutes. I was NOT talking about that, just your comments on drinking, in that quote. </p>

<p>I talked about driving as to who drives and who doesn't just here in my community in high school. Teens where I live really do need to drive no matter their income level and many teens work, including my own who are not low income.</p>

<p>Back to what I WAS talking about....your quote:</p>

<p>"The vast, overwhelming majority of college students - like their non-college-going counterparts - do not drink to excess, and certainly not on a regular basis. They also do not come from families in the top quintile, with incomes in excess of $100k; they do not attend "prestigious colleges", and the majority do not attend residential colleges. Many of them commute, and the higher drinking age has saved tens of thousands of their lives, the lives of their passengers, and the lives of other drivers. They do drink, on the whole moderately, and alcohol doesn't rule their lives or their social environment. It IS like Europe or the Carribean, except they will not be served in restaurants, etc. The vast majority couldn't AFFORD the bingeing one sees at many prestigious colleges.</p>

<p>Within the prestigious colleges, about a quarter are total abstainers, and about half of the rest - overweighted toward the poorer ones, the churchgoers, and ethnic and racial minorities, and to a lesser extent, females - do not binge drink, or drink only moderately"</p>

<p>So, as I was saying, you were stating that lower income students , the ones who commute to college or do not attend prestigious collgees, only drink moderately and do not binge drink like their higher income counterparts or those who attend prestigious universities. Then you said that within the prestigious universities themselves, oten it is the poorer students (and some others) who do not binge drink or only drink modestly .....so that even on these campuses, it is the better off students who do the heavy drinking. </p>

<p>I was saying, I don't see that breakdown whatsoever. In high school alone, here in my community and where I grew up, often it was the kids who were not college bound or who were lower income who drank more. And certainly ON campus, I don't think the kids coming from higher income families drink more than the others. I do not see that dichotomy. </p>

<p>I also disagree with your cost analysis of drinking. Many heavy drinkers in the low income bracket of kids may get drunk on lower priced beer or kegs, not necessarily high priced drinks or bars. In fact, a student could put all their spending money into drinking. </p>

<p>Further, you seem to have these two extremes...prestigious schools and commuter type schools. A lot of big party college campuses fall between these two extremes in fact. Are all the kids on those campuses rich? I think not. </p>

<p>In my own community, often the young adults in the bars may not be college educated and they frequent the bars a lot. The kids I know who did not go to college party. They may work a low paying job but believe me, those kids party. </p>

<p>My kids are not rich. They are not low income either. My kids do go to selective schools. My kids, if anything, likely drink less than the kids I know of lower income or who go to far less selective schools. I believe some of their friends at UVM party more hearty than they do. </p>

<p>I certainly believe the part of the Harvard study of kids drinking on residential college campuses. It is prevalent at most colleges, NO doubt about it. I don't see that tied to income level in the way you are saying. There are plenty of kids who go to residential colleges who are NOT wealthy. They drink. There are plenty of kids who go to colleges that are not prestigious, but they are residential. They drink. There is a whole chasm between commuter schools and prestigious residential colleges. These are just two extremes. And your point about those on campus AT the prestigious colleges breaking down by income level and who drinks on those actual campuses, I don't agree wtih.</p>

<p>Not everyone falls into the extremes you mention. There are a range of colleges. There are a range of income levels at some of these colleges. It is not just the rich kids who drink. It is not just the prestigious colleges where kids drink the heaviest. And it is not within these presitgious colleges, that the majority who drink the most or who binge, are just the more well heeled kids. I think a LOT of college kids drink. I think they go to ALL kinds of colleges....community colleges, NO college, state universities, the big party schools, the elite colleges, etc. I think kids of all income levels drink. </p>

<p>In my observation, kids (from any income level and who attend any type of college) who are very serious about academic achievement, who are heavily involved in extracurricular commitments, and may even also hold a part time job, are often the ones less engaged in heavy binge drinking. Those are my observations from both high school and my kids' experiences in college. That point has nothing to do with the income and nothing to do with the selectivity of the college. </p>

<p>Lastly, my first post on this thread was an observation not just from this thread but that I feel ANY topic discussed on this forum, you tend to bring in a stereotype of the different income classes and group students into two extremes, with assumptions for both, sometimes when it is not the topic at hand even. I understand your agenda and interests and am just observing them. I think there tends to be a blanket stereotype about populations of kids. I just don't agree to using such stereotypes in some of these topics but it is OK that you do, I was just commenting.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>as far as binge drinking being tied to income level...it may be easier for those with money to buy their stuff but it's no deal breaker. The poorest folks seem to be doing it just fine just like the middle class and the rich. May be marijuana or cheap beer instead of grey goose but still gets the job done.</p>

<p>btw I'm sure it was never intended for debate that the driving age be moved up to 21...but given the amount of $ I have spent on my kids driving "problems" I'd be a lot richer. </p>

<p>and I too think drinking age 18 would solve a lot of problems. Makes no sense that you can fight for the rest of us in Iraq but can't sit down in a pub and have a beer. S was nearly finished with undergrad and in a masters program at 20...get togethers for the program were held in an off campus pub, sad he needed the fake id to have a drink with his classmates.</p>

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<p>"So, as I was saying, you were stating that lower income students , the ones who commute to college or do not attend prestigious collgees, only drink moderately and do not binge drink like their higher income counterparts or those who attend prestigious universities. Then you said that within the prestigious universities themselves, oten it is the poorer students (and some others) who do not binge drink or only drink modestly .....so that even on these campuses, it is the better off students who do the heavy drinking."</p>

<p>First off, there is binge and heavy drinking within ALL populations, all age groups, all incomes, all ethnicities, in colleges of all kinds, and outside of colleges. If I have said anything to suggest otherwise, I apologize. </p>

<p>Secondly, the Wechsler surveys themselves do not go into enough detail to tell us anything truly definitive about drinking within a campus, other than that factors associated with same include: race/ethnicity, athletic participation, and fraternity/sorority membership. That the latter is associated with higher incomes I do not know - I assume it is true, but I honestly do not know. Wechsler concentrates on the differences among entire campus populations, and finds both residential status and family income associated with higher heavy drinking. </p>

<p>More in depth surveys such as those undertaken at my alma mater get into more detail. Heavy alcohol use is strongly associated with race (white), and the percentages of minorities receiving financial aid is about double that of the white population (and minorities participate in intercollegiate athletics at roughly 60% of the rate of white students.). I do not have any such breakdown within the white population itself.</p>

<p>When it comes to the pre-gaming thing, I am absolutely and totally out of my element. I never did it (though I sure smoked enough weed in my day), and I just don't remember it being a significant part of campus life. And, no, even when hard liquor was cheaper, I couldn't have gotten close to being able to afford what currently defines levels of binge and heavy drinking, even if I wanted to. My suspicion is that many college administrators, who grew up in the same time period and experienced the same campus environment that I did, don't really understand it either, which makes it difficult to act (until their are deaths, etc.)</p>

<p>As for the more general income thing, I'm scratching my head, but I can't remember the last time I heard an advocate for low-income communities urging the lowering of the drinking age. Income doesn't explain everything in America, and certainly not everything about colleges. But it often explains an awful lot. ;)</p>

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<p>JMMom, and to think that pleasure from sex should be a little more than unidirectional.</p>

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<p>Blame the ridiculous legal age--21. I'm from Quebec, and I'll tell you that everyone here gets their kicks out early. Alcohol is not a problem among college kids--sure, everyone gets drunk, but it's never out of control. Look at other countries where the legal age is 18, 19--binge drinking among teenagers is not a major concern. Keep the legal age at 21 and everyone will stay at frat parties, drinking gallons of free beer. Lower the age to 18, 19, and everyone will start going out to drink, where you're less likely to get really out of control.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I really wish the US was more like Europe in that drinking is not considered a big deal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wonder how many people who make this comment have really studied these countries. Great Britain has at least as much problem with binge drinking for young people. It's huge. As does Sweeden. In Sweeden the high school students binge drink every weekend to the point of passing out. And some of them do it at school dances. </p>

<p>Have those of you who claim that a lower drinking age or a more permissive stance toward young people drinking actually 'studied' the facts?</p>