Respectfully, I think people are just being honest and no one is saying anything personally nasty to this person. Plus, I agree with @MaineLonghorn and @skieurope that this is almost certainly a person who is having fun watching this thread, as evidenced by the fact that they have failed to respond, yet they have most certainly been active on CC since posting.
In fact, I’ll say hi to @BillyZuela right now!
Back to the discussion…
The help is there and the young men will only go to tutoring if a friend is going, or if a girl asks them to go. This needs to change. My daughter, the engineering tutor at her college, rarely saw men who proactively would seek help until the professors required it of men not doing well in their classes. She didn’t care who she saw because she was still being paid, but she felt really badly for students who had entered the major, with no natural inclination for the math and physics progression, and unaware of how their previous experiences with those subjects had to be strong.
In my profession as a Speech and Language Pathologist, I worked with a number of adolescents on the spectrum. All of them were male. I had no females on my roster. When I gave group lessons, in a special class of twenty, for social disorders, there was one female who asked, specifically, to be included in the lesson per my “reputation”.
One of the things, I learned from them, was how “ingrained” our cultures teach us that the man is “stronger” and only a “weakling” asks for help. These kids were embarrassed that they “needed” to come see me but, they loved coming to our sessions because I made them feel “normal” and treated them like “adults”. I think that male students are “taught by experience” that you don’t ask for help because you don’t need it and that you can solve the problem yourself. “You just need to try harder”.
I think we are doing a disservice to these young men by pushing college educations and not pushing the trades. It’s now ingrained in kids that they HAVE TO go to college.
I was “successful” with my students because I often “volunteered” them for the “trades” at the high school.
“John, the drama department needs some help with the sets and lighting, can you give them a little time to build some backgrounds? They always love the sets you build and requested you. Ask your parents if you are available on weekends. Does anyone else in the group want to help John? He can show you what to do. They will feed you and give you Student Store credit.”
“Mark, the Track team needs help to set up for the State tryouts, can you give them some time? You’re really good with taking directions and marking the fields. The coaches really like you and can pay you. Are you interested?”
I had one kid, whose Dad was an electrician, and he owned his own company. He demanded that his kid go to college (mild spectrum case). The kid, very intelligent, went on jobs with Dad, and learned the trade over the years. He had those skills! He liked working with his hands. When talking to the Mom, she knew her son was really good with electrical and didn’t want to push college. She said her son could easily earn really good money and not work evenings, weekends nor holidays. Dad was the issue. Mom said that Dad made a six figure salary and wanted a “college educated” son.
What are we doing to our kids???
My kids’ middle school lego robotics club was girls only.
What specifically is the problem, and what does it have to do with the existence of Women’s Studies programs?
In my son’s middle school the STEM club was only for girls.
I don’t think it’s that the clubs are not allowed. It’s just that the teacher sponsors have chosen to do single-sex clubs as they’re more well-known in our area and there aren’t enough teacher sponsors, I guess. Either that or parents haven’t complained enough.
Interesting. Have students asked for these clubs? I am not really sure how it works at other schools - I know at D’s high school, most student clubs are student initiated. Any student can start any club they want and, as a competitive school with a high number of overachieving/ambitious students, not surprisingly there are A LOT of clubs. I know that each club does need a faculty sponsor, but that that sponsor doesn’t really have to do anything. The students are responsible for everything in most cases (and as result, clubs rise and fall, get created and disappear, etc).
Anyway, as i said, I don’t know how it is done in other districts, so not sure of the process, how much is student-driven, how much is faculty-driven, and what dynamics determine which clubs will be offered and which won’t. It may be that there is quite a bit of variety there - and I do find it interesting.
Some of the schools I’m thinking of are actually elementary/K-8 schools, so the kids aren’t doing much of the leadership with those. I do more work in that domain than in high schools, but I’m now curious to see if some of the same patterns are continuing.
Maybe lots of fathers/parents have expectations, but they aren’t having the desired influence on their sons. The diminishing numbers of men in college show that young men are turning away from higher ed, for decades now. Undergraduate enrollment in the U.S., by gender 2030 | Statista.
There are definitely stats out there that show a precipitous decline in young men enrolling in college since the pandemic. In the link above, the year 2020 shows a very noticeable decrease.
I work with teenagers as a tutor. My work centers on prepping kids for the college process. There is no question that I have had fewer male students since the pandemic. But, if I am just a sample of one, there has been an uptick this summer of male students. So maybe the trend is changing, but let’s see what happens. If the graphic I linked is accurate, it seems numbers of men at college will increase. They aren’t going to catch up with women any time soon.
In the area where I live, boys are very much expected to go to college. I have worked with a number of boys who are learning trades in addition to going to college. One of them is a plumber and does that every summer, then goes back to college. I also worked with a kid who is a welder (not legally supposed to.)
I know a lot of young men who have either delayed going to college, or are taking years to complete a degree. I know some who started and dropped out. I know young guys who are car mechanics with no interest in college. Nothing unusual about that.
I don’t know ANY girls who have done the same. Every girl I have worked with goes to college and stays there and gets her degree in 4 years or so.
There probably are unrealistic expectations put on a lot of young men. I don’t know what all this means, but it is definitely interesting.
In our case the faculty felt like there were too many boys on the robotics team so they made it girls only and kicked the boys off. My son was very sad about it. Perhaps even worse, after a few semesters of losing teams, they couldn’t attract enough girls and ended the program.
Yes, we complained and were told that the boys were managing everything over the girls and not giving them the opportunity to lead.
Maybe because it’s where I live and we were at a top HS - but I know of very few kids (boys, girls) that didn’t go to a four year school.
A few a 2 year school and one on a mission and he now does seasonal work - at a farm nearby for the summer and a NY ski resort in the Winter.
But it seems, where I live, the four year is expected.
I’m not sure a four year is right or right for everyone but these kids don’t seem to have plans otherwise. They don’t want to work fast food (pays well) or retail or become diesel mechanics (pays really really well) so other than stare at their phones, which they do anyway, it almost seems to me - it’s just doing the “expected” thing.
But I’m sure that’s socioeconomic.
This happens a lot among young kids, especially in STEM. Some boys make it extremely uncomfortable for girls (and other boys) to meaningfully participate.
The mentor for the group should be dealing with this!
Not a reason to shut out boys completely. Have two clubs, manage the boys better, recruit girls, but don’t eliminate the boys. Some boys aren’t athletes or artists and activities like the robotics club are the equivalant of their football game.
My STEM daughter has experienced this a lot. Very often the mentor/teacher doesn’t even realize it’s happening. The boys talking over the girls, stepping in to answer a question that was directed at the teacher, taking it upon themselves to decide who gets to do what, etc. All goes unnoticed for the most part.
Maybe it’s subconscious bias, I don’t know. But it happens.
There is a problem, but it has nothing to do with women’s studies programs.
The National Center for Education Statistics wrote that women made up 58% of current college students. Basically for every two men in college, there are three women. For multiple reasons, males are falling behind in high school, and not getting to college.
Some people here seem to have the attitude that these boys should simply step up on their own. And there’s some truth to that. But note that the ground is shifting underneath the boys feet to disfavor the things that they typically do well in. Boys traditionally have done better on standardized tests. In fact the Academic Index that was used for recruited athletes was based 2/3rds on standardized tests. But the UCs have gone entirely test blind, giving them one less way to shine. And much of the country remains test optional.
The bigger issue is that males who underachieve are responsible for many of society’s problems and always have been. If we continue to ignore this problem now, it can become a much bigger problem in the future.
Note that the need to increase attention on male underperformance doesn’t mean we are done with helping women achieve all they can. Women are still very underrepresented in many (often high paying) fields. That’s why I welcome clubs like Girls Who Code.
Yes, I have experienced that a lot as an engineer and also when participating in organizations. And if I speak up loudly enough to be heard, I sound shrill.
It does help to get older now. I just keep talking.
S23 captained his robotics team and the mentor never attended any meetings. The LT ran everything. He tried to recruit more young women to the team, but the general reputation was that the club was hostile towards women in all the ways previous posters described.
He really learned a lot that year about inclusive leadership and valuing every person on a team. My hope is he will remember those lessons in college and beyond and not be the guy in the room talking over/ignoring others.
In a sense, this is even more interesting. I don’t remember D’s elementary or middle school having any clubs at all. Most kids attended afterschool programs or did sports - but that was all outside of school (and not in any way affiliated with the school). I remember some affinity groups (such as Black and Latinx family groups), which I suppose are sort of like clubs but also not? I don’t remember any school-affiliated hobby/interest clubs at her K-8, however, and yet obviously this kind of socialization (such as women in STEM) begins at that age and could potentially have the most impact…
I agree, but the suggested options are generally ineffective at dealing with the issue
Unfortunately there may be more truth to this than you might have intended. The sportification of STEM alienates a substantial portion of talented kids, many of whom are girls. It isn’t the subject-matter that alienates them, it is the toxic culture. Not everyone thrives when STEM becomes the equivalent of football for non-athletes.
@hebegebe, interesting you would say all this given that you have often expressed the viewpoint that educational institutions must be prevented doing anything about these gender disparities or even considering gender at all. 