Why law school? (especially now)

Graduate School Law School
1

<p><strong><em>IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT LAW SCHOOL PLEASE READ THIS</em></strong></p>

<p>I find that there are more and more young people (even those just beginning high school) boldly, albeit naively, exclaiming that the want to go to law school and become "lawyers". But, in all of their naive innocence, what they don't realize is that law school is NOT what it is all hiped up to be.</p>

<p>First, if you're thinking of having fun in law school, THINK AGAIN! The three or four years of law school is designed to be nothing less than a willpower-testing and emotionally-defeating experience. If you think getting into law school is hard, GETTING OUT is ten times HARDER. Over the many decades of developing the modern law school experience in the US, law schools have come up with tools such as the Socratic Method, the first year curve, rankings and law review honors to "weed out" those whose resolve is not strong enough to be there. Once you are in law school, I guarantee you (and no one is an exception to this - whether you're at Harvard or Thomas Cooley) that you will question yourself time and time again, "do I belong here" or "what else could I be doing" or "where am I headed".</p>

<p>Second, law school is a tremendous financial endeaver. While some of you may not be concerned with this aspect of law school yet, you will realize that the average law school debt of $100,000 is nothing to take lightly. Even though your parents may be glad to take out that second mortgage for you to be able to pursue your dream, in effect, it all comes down to a $100,000 loss or, rather, a $100,000 opportunity cost (i.e. $100,000 is plenty of money to, in fact, start your own business/company after college). It also boggles the senses, why professionals, in this bad economy, are willing to leave their jobs in order to get MORE DEBT for something that is definitely not a sure thing. I will tell these people that you are definitely looking in the wrong place. Career changes rarely make people happier and the last place where you will find happiness is in the legal profession - which is a cruel cruel world for those who don't know - comprised of bitter drawn out feuds one after the other.</p>

<p>Third, while a law degree is versatile in some ways, the overwhelming majority of lawyers are litigators. In other words, if you don't like speaking in public, don't like being in courtrooms and don't like reading and writing hundreds of pages of legal documents, and don't like being constantly criticized for your work, then being a lawyer will probably not make you happy. Perhaps, another "bubble burster" is that most lawyers don't make six figures starting salaries as much as Hollywood would like to have us believe. While they do make more than the average college graduate, most lawyers only make about $10,000-$30,000 more on average. Oh, don't forget about the debt that I mentioned earlier. You may be paying about $1000 per month for several years until the principle and interest is paid off for your legal education.</p>

<p>Fourth, being a lawyer is NOT as marketable as is used to be. In fact, it is a fact that people with technical knowledge and skills have a much easier time finding jobs. The US, especially, is lacking in this area. It is no wonder why, we have to draw foreigners to the US with full tuitions to boost our technical know-how. I guarantee you that a chemical engineer is much more marketable today than your average lawyer. If you want job security, the key is to MAKE yourself MARKETABLE. You can do this by studying math, science, engineer, diplomacy, economics and, to a lesser extent, even business.</p>

<p>So, to conclude, consider your options before even thinking of applying to law school. It is a decision not to be taken lightly. While it makes some people successful in the end, it makes most misersable. And if you are still in high school, then you'll find your interests might change several times over and you may entirely forget about law school (for whatever reason you wanted it in the first place). For those thinking of a career change in this aweful economy, you should also seriously rethink your options. While prospects may be poor now, recessions ALWAYS turn around eventually. It is normal to be unhappy in such a difficult time, but you should feel GOOD knowing that you don't have it all that bad (this is truly nothing compared to the Great Depression Era). You have food on your plate and you are still able to enjoy life, even if you do have to be more thrifty. But trying to throw money at your problems to put yourself in more debt (like the US government is now doing) will NOT solve your problem. Repeat after me: this will NOT solve my problems!</p>

2

<p>TexasJJKernal, do you have anything the least bit positive to offer up regarding law school? Your rant is poorly written, poorly spelled, poorly structured, unbalanced, and a bit hyperbolic. You would have one believe that law school is nothing but three years of unjustifiable hell with little at the end of the tunnel awaiting graduates. </p>

<p>Immediate thoughts:
1. Three or FOUR years of law school? Law school doesn't exactly work like undergraduate education, where one can often have some flexibility in how many credits per semester they wish to take.
2. Not everybody attending law school is directionless, attending law school simply due to the vague notion that a JD is marketable or affords flexibility. There ARE students with an actual inkling of what they wish to do with their professional lives.
3. An opportunity cost of $100K? Have you even every taken an economics course?<br>
4. The average income of U.S. lawyers is not a great number off of which to judge whether or not the profession would be worthwhile. There exists a bimodal income curve for U.S. attorneys, with most bunched into either an income range of $40-60K or $140-160K. The disparity, of course, can be explained by the swelled ranks (although increasingly thinning these days) of BIGLAW, which has 1st year compensation of $160K plus bonus in most major markets, and the graduates from low-ranked schools or with low grades, who are forced into poorly-paid jobs. </p>

<p>See here for reference: lawjobs.com</a> Career Center - What Law School Rankings Don't Say About Costly Choices</p>

<p>In general, while I think your advice has some merit, it applies mostly to applicants who either have no idea why they want to practice law or are not aware of the harsh economic realities of graduates who are not the so-called cream of the crop. The majority of law students in the U.S. probably SHOULDN'T be in law school, but there are still many who have a shot at fulfilling, lucrative careers.</p>

3

<p>This thread is non-sense. I stopped reading after the second typo on the OP, so I didn't get past the first paragraph (skimmed the rest).</p>

<p>OP: What's your background? I ask because since you purport to share words of wisdom it ought to be obvious that we need to know where said wisdom comes from.</p>

4

<p>As a lawyer of 30+ years who has been a guest lecturer at a law school (and who has a kid who is determined to go off to law school next year), I think the OP's posting is ABSOLUTELY TRUE! These are the things that I've told my own kids. </p>

<p>You want to hear something nice about law school? Some students get good scholarships (and then compete to keep them...be warned that the GPA required to keep scholarships in law school is balanced against a very tight curve which in many schools will be disclosed in the academic handbook. If you compare the curve against the numbers of students in each class, it becomes apparent that many are likely to lose those 1L scholarships). Law school will challenge your reading and writing abilities to the utmost, so if you like to read this will be perfect for you (although keep in mind that legal reading and writing is nothing like the reading and writing that you've done in the past...you may need to spend several hours on one archaic case in your casebook, having to look up every third word in your Black's law dictionary...). Like public speaking? You'll have many opportunities to do public speaking in front of the rest of your class in law school, while the Professor shows you the deficiencies in your reasoning. Like Type-A, argumentative people? You'll be surrounded with them, throughout your professional career, since lawyers argue for a living. Think that being a lawyer will earn you instant respect? Lawyers have a poor reputation in our society generally and you will have an opportunity to try to improve that reputation by upholding the highest professional standards (and by not being an argumentative jerk and throwing your legal degree around to non-lawyers. This is a difficult temptation to control since we do, after all, argue for a living). </p>

<p>If you are driven to be a lawyer, fine. OP is not speaking to prospective law students who are working towards a specific goal. There are people who are driven to be engineers, social workers, teachers, accountants, scientists, etc. I don't think the OP is saying that no one should become a lawyer. I interpreted the poster as offering some wisdom to put law school and a legal career into a little perspective for those who are fantasizing that they know what it's actually like, or that a J.D. is the magic key to the door of success. Having a goal in law school is good, of course. </p>

<p>Think of it a little like basketball. Wow, it's exciting to be selected for the varsity team in high school (12 kids, out of an entire high school?). Then it's exciting to get an opportunity to play at D1 (even more restrictive, but there are D2 and D3 schools that will let you play the game without the recognition of a D1 school). Great....but how many of those D1 players move on to the NBA, if the NBA are the General Counsels, judges, managing partners of big-law, etc. Sure, it's do-able but you really have to want to play the game through this whole process, and there are many levels of play.</p>

<p>Crnchy--3-yrs of law school is full-time, 4-years is part-time. OP is correct.</p>

5

<p>I'm just an observer to all of this- but hubby is an attorney and looks like d will be applying to law school next cycle.
I gotta admit- I agree with much of what Texas and Neo have to say. And yes- Part- time law school is a 4 year program. Many of our friends are graduates of the PT programs at Brooklyn and Fordham law school.</p>

<p>Many of the attorneys I know with 25 years of experience do currently earn between 140-160K a year. I'm not talking about the Harvard grad right out of law school- but professionals with 20 + years experience and in their prime earning years.
No one is complaining- an income of $150,000 is quite comfortable- but I think too many on these boards have an extremely unrealistic view of earning capacities.</p>

<p>Hubby will still ask my kid every so often- Are you sure you want to go to law school?? It's funny, many of our friends who are attorneys aren't "pushing" their own kids to go to law school, in fact many of them would prefer they go into another field- but some of the kids are following in their parents footsteps regardless of what mom and pop say.
Silly kids!</p>

6

<p>Would you like to rant about the US Government bailing people out too? Just go to the Business School forum and blame them for all our troubles.</p>

<p>Yes, its true that a law degree from Cooley is worth nothing but you have to take into consideration that the average person on CC is above average and there are a lot of people aiming for the T14, T20 zones. If someone is smart enough to get into a school of that caliber, it's likely that they'll do quite well there. Also take into consideration that higher ranks schools have been easing their grades as practically all their students find worthwhile employment that more than makes up for the debt accrued. </p>

<p>Yes, your rant is a good one for some, but be careful before making sweeping generalizations and ignoring that people who have put in the work Do end up making a decent living doing something they very much enjoy.</p>

7

<p>I'd like to add my two cents.</p>

<p>OP has a way of getting folks riled up. The fact is that there are risks to choosing any profession, and he has identified a few which are inherent in choosing a legal career. One fact of life is that there is no such thing as a 'sure thing'. A few years ago, all of the smart kids were swarming into finance. We all know how that's working out at this point. I know plenty of people with strong engineering backgrounds who are struggling, too. It used to be thought that working for a state or local government could provide a sinecure--a safe way to get a steady salary and a great pension. No longer!</p>

<p>I think anyone who's considering an investment in professional or graduate school needs to consider carefully what they love to do and what they feel called to do for others and for themselves. There is nothing wrong with offering a word of caution as the OP does. Without a love for the law and a desire to practice law, it doesn't make much sense to go to law school.</p>

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<p>You know, I never really understood some people who contribute to forums like this. It seems that some people's only intention is to start menial, baseless and personal "wars" with other users. </p>

<p>I offered this advice as my personal opinion. It is the same advice that I would give my children, simply, that the decision to go to law school is not to be taken lightly. I would have been so grateful, if someone would have told me this before I decided to enter this professional years ago.</p>

<p>Having said that, I do not appreciate the personal attacks from some users.</p>

<p>If you disagree then fine. But, seriously, if you're only argument is my few typos in a fairly long post, then you really can't argue well and, its clear, you have little of value to offer to this discussion. I didn't know editing your posts is a requirement here. Furthermore, CEREAL, your critique is pompous, unconstructive and offers very little in terms of value. </p>

<p>WILDFLOWER, if you really think that this a bunch of "non-sense" then I would be worried about your intellectual capacity if I were you. You seem pretty childish to me. Perhaps, you simply have ADD, considering you can't read something through completely (even if you don't entirely agree with it).</p>

<p>Lastly, despite their rhetoric and pompousness, I doubt that either CEREAL or WILDFLOWER has gone through law school. If they had, they would have understood the point that I was trying to make, regardless, of whether they agreed with it. Not to mention, they don't even know that part-time law school exists.</p>

<p>In contrast, I do appreciate Neonzeus' valuable input in this discussion and I believe that, evident in the writing, Neonzeus unselfishly offers his/her input from his/her personal experiences.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If you think getting into law school is hard, GETTING OUT is ten times HARDER.

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</p>

<p>It's funny that you say that because from everyone I've talked to, and everything I've read, getting in is the hard part. Once you are in, the fact that you will graduate is a virtual certainty. The amount of students that flunk out because they can't hack it is minuscule. I suggest you study up on LSAC's official statistics that reinforce this claim.</p>

<p>Is the journey easy? Of course not. But once you are in, you will finish. Maybe you are going a bit overboard here because you've never been through things in your life where a large number of people truly wash out regardless of how hard they try. Law school can't really be counted as an example of this since almost every single person finishes. Once you are in, you will finish. That is not up for debate. The only let down you may face is not truly living up to your own vision and potential grade-wise.</p>

<p>I'm sure there is also an added element regarding your post that is common to human psychology. People who have already been through something that is very difficult have a tendency to make it sound even worse than it is to the people who are yet to go through it. I'm not a psychologist, but I think this boils down to the person making these claims to boost their own self-esteem/self-worth since you subconciously want us to look at you with respect because you actually made it through this insane journey while at the same time trying to make us doubt that we can too.</p>

<p>Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post but I must say your tough love approach was very unhelpful and nonconstructive.</p>

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<p>"You seem pretty childish to me. Perhaps, you simply have ADD."</p>

<p>Irony.</p>

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<p>
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Having said that, I do not appreciate the personal attacks from some users.

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</p>

<p>Of course you don't. Very few people enjoy attacks. That said, I did not attack you on a personal level--so surely you are not referring to me. And it doesn't seem to me like crhchycereal made any personal attacks either. </p>

<p>
[quote]
If you disagree then fine. But, seriously, if you're only argument is my few typos in a fairly long post, then you really can't argue well and, its clear, you have little of value to offer to this discussion.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let me see the logic behind this: 1) Disagreeing is OK. That I agree with. Now to your second point which is a bit more convoluted. It goes something like this:</p>

<p>2) If you only disagree with my [many] typos, then you can't really argue well. (It is also clear [to me] you have little of value to offer to this discussion [because you don't ignore my poorly written post].) </p>

<p>Somehow it also follows that the OP ought to be excused for the poorly written post and all those typos because, well, his post is "fairly long". And that if you don't realize that, then you show poor judgment and can't argue well on top.</p>

<p>Can I just say that again this is non-sense? You feel attacked on a personal level because people can't get themselves to respect a quite poorly written post. Yet it was your choice to write poorly; then it was also your choice to blame others. And then you are oversensitive when people point out the truly obvious (unlike you, no one is claiming that you don't know how to argue. I for one don't have evidence for that, just like you don't have it to support your assertion that "because someone can't get past your typos, then they clearly don't know how to argue well"). It is clear to me however that you either have no respect for your readers and expect them to put up with a poorly written post--and, casual observation, that it is quite likely you are not very good at persuasion, at least not when it comes to presenting what you are trying to say in a clear, well-written manner. Your post gives evidence for that.</p>

<p>What follows from this? Well, kids... don't expect to be a successful attorney if you can't write. (And don't demonize those who are less than impressed by poor writing skills if the point is to persuade and not to argue pointlessly.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
I didn't know editing your posts is a requirement here.

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</p>

<p>It is--if only for the sake of being understood.</p>

<p>
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Furthermore, CEREAL, your critique is pompous, unconstructive and offers very little in terms of value.

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</p>

<p>Uh, no. Said critique actually balances your poorly-written unbalanced original post. I found it quite valuable.</p>

<p>
[quote]
WILDFLOWER, if you really think that this a bunch of "non-sense" then I would be worried about your intellectual capacity if I were you. You seem pretty childish to me. Perhaps, you simply have ADD, considering you can't read something through completely (even if you don't entirely agree with it).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thank you for your concern, but it is unfounded--like most of your rather unclear post. I am actually seriously worried that you apparently don't even realize that a poorly-written post is bound to be both annoying and unconvincing. </p>

<p>I do worry that you find someone "childish" because they don't like typos... how did you get into and out of college... or law school for that matter? Perhaps that's where your dissatisfaction originates, i.e. that you can't write? That point is well taken. But it would have taken you a sentence or two to say it, e.g. "Kids, don't go to law school if you don't know how to write well; or at least don't expect to be happy if you do". See? And surely you could have edited two lines, it ought not to take your entire day.</p>

<p>And, well, almost needless to point out the irony of someone claiming to be the victim of personal attacks (which didn't actually happen) and then making ludicrous ad-hominem attacks himself or herself. In case your reading comprehension is that dismal, my point was that I couldn't take you seriously because of how poorly written your post is--not that I could not read it in its entirety. It was simply not worth reading in its entirety. The points you present were rather simple and common-sense (and have been presented on this forum before); unfortunately those points were seriously diluted by your poor writing (whether the poor writing is by choice or lack of ability, I neither know nor care). I skimmed your post in its entirety (which for you may actually qualify as "read through," my Texas friend). Once again, your use of logic leaves a lot to be desired--and yet you question my intellectual ability and call me childish. Please. Grow up, or at least use logic well (and write adequately). </p>

<p>
[quote]
Lastly, despite their rhetoric and pompousness, I doubt that either CEREAL or WILDFLOWER has gone through law school. If they had, they would have understood the point that I was trying to make, regardless, of whether they agreed with it. Not to mention, they don't even know that part-time law school exists.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First, what rhetoric and what pompousness? Write well so people don't have to make assumptions about your background and ability. You STILL have not shared where your 'wisdom' comes from, yet you expect not only to have credibility but that other posters won't question said 'wisdom'. Before I take 'the point that you were trying to make' seriously I need to know you have a clue about what you are saying (and your writing does not support it!)</p>

<p>And to clarify, I am sure crnchycereal knew that part-time law school is usually four years or longer. I certainly did. However, there is no reason to believe that's what you referred to when you say "3 or 4 years of law school". Intellectual laziness is not a good justification for lack of clarity; you can't just assume that you can write poorly and have other people understand you. The burden is on you as a writer to make yourself understood. Surely as a practicing lawyer who graduated from an accredited law school (whether top-10 or top-200) you know this. I mean, I see you are new to this forum so you may have no clue... but do you realize how many high school kids write posts like yours on this forum? It happens quite often. You can't blame people for not taking you seriously if your writing is like theirs. Point made?</p>

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<p>Wait, a minute OP. Just hold on a doggone minute. Are you saying that....</p>

<p>1) Law school is not for everyone?!
2) Law school is not easy to get into?!
3) Law school is difficult and not easy like undergrad?!
4) Law school is expensive??!</p>

<p>Well thanks for sharing! I don't think any of us ever knew this before. Good thing you came along and told us...whew! To think I might have wasted my time applying. </p>

<p>...in all seriousness, this is common knowledge. Thank you for the advice, but most people already are aware of this, especially on a site like CC. I want to go to Law school to become a lawyer. That's simply what I'm interested in. I'm not doing it to make myself more "marketable". I'm not using it as an excuse to solve my "problem". What is my problem, by the way? I would hope I'll be marketable enough with a Bachelors in Economics and JD from (hopefully) a top Law school.</p>

<p>You think Law school is hell, but you advise us to become Engineers instead? Yeah, because 4 years of Engineering is one long party...we should all study something we have no interest in or aptitude for, in order to become more "marketable"? Sorry, but that's kind of silly. Plenty of people pursue studies in things that are far less marketable - think of all the Humanities and Arts, for example. Most people who choose to attend Law school are aware it's difficult and expensive, just like most people who major in Humanities/Arts know it'll be a little harder to get jobs. It's something we put up with to pursue what we really enjoy.</p>

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<p>"Over the many decades of developing the modern law school experience in the US, law schools have come up with tools such as the Socratic Method"</p>

<p>I am sorry but this just made my day. OP, have you heard of a dude called Socrates, who presumably walked the earth a little more than 2,000 years ago? Another dude called Plato wrote about him at length. He--not US law schools--is the father of the "Socratic Method". See? Socrates--> Socratic. Law schools did not "come up with tools such as the Socratic Method" over the many decades of developing the "modern law school experience in the US". This is, again, non-sense. But, you see, a non-marketable humanities degree from good college would have prevented you from spouting such ignorance and embarrassing yourself.</p>

14

<p>On a more serious note, I am a high school student who will be majoring in a Political Science undergraduate degree two years from now. From there, I plan on applying to Law School. From what I am reading of TexasJJKernal suggestions on law school, I do believe that although this person maybe somewhat biased in his/her view, I think that they have offered everyone some valid suggestions. However, if one is just not merely discouraged to attend law school, do you think that there are better undergraduate courses that can better prepare one for law school? As well, I know that the intelligence level of most successfull and practising lawyers is certainly above average, but just how much above average should it be considering that one is a hard worker?</p>

15

<p>hah.</p>

<p>Craze, don't go into undergrad thinking that you have to major in political science in order to go to law school.. take what you enjoy. Challenge yourself and avoid a fluff major (unless that is what you want to do)</p>

16

<p>In any case Truth, if one wants to pursue a political science major would you say that it generally prepares one for law school, as well is it typically a hard major to succeed in?</p>

17

<p>I'd say most liberal arts majors generally prepare you for law school. Poli sci may help you in allowing you to cover concepts like constitutional law before law school & will hone your analytical skills.</p>

<p>If you like it, then I wouldn't say its <em>harder</em> than others.. but it will be a lot more intensive than other majors. You'll be reading & writing more than anyone other than an English major, so it will also prepare you a bit for law school writing. The only downside is that so many poli sci majors are applying to law schools that for them it's the norm rather than a plus.</p>

18

<p>What in your opinion then, should one do to gain a more competitive edge over other applicants? Considering if one has no personal prejiduces against any undergraduate majors ?</p>

19

<p>Start off by sampling a lot of majors and see what else you like. I think a double major between PoliSci and something other than History can make you a pretty strong candidate. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard that some other law schools look rather favorably upon philosophy majors (personally, I see it as no more than fluff-squared).</p>

<p>Focus on doing well and getting as involved as you can. Schools like Yale put major consideration towards your ECs. Take every opportunity to do something extra (and to get a leadership position). During your summers, challenge yourself to do something amazing that you can talk about rather than working retail or as a camp counselor. They just want to see that you did your best, challenged yourself to the highest extent possible, & that you like to get involved in things</p>

20

<p>Shantytown -</p>

<p>Did you just post to insult me? I am sure you realize that doesn't reflect well on your character (not that you care). </p>

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well its the second time I've run into Wildflower on these boards and, yet again, he starts stupid fights and continues to show that he is a complete idiot!

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</p>

<p>For your information, I did not start any 'stupid fight'. I simply made a valid point. The point is: write clearly if you want to be understood. I am not surprised you don't understand it, considering our previous encounters (which did raise serious questions about your intellectual abilities). But frankly, I thought you stopped posting once you realize how unpleasant and non-nonsensical you were being. I actually respected that. You had nothing to add, so you left. I am surprised you would post again, esp. when you do it simply to insult others. </p>

<p>(By the way, since when I am a 'he'? It's just funny how you show your ignorance over and over--and yet add no value whatsoever.)</p>