<p>I’d also like to add to my above post that my daughter would not have picked French in Elementary school, but enjoys it now and wishes to study abroad in France, if possible, when she gets to college. Her elementary years were packed with other core courses, and even if their was the money for an early second language program, I don’t know where they would have found the time. As it is ESL students have to miss out on art, technology and music to take classes to improve their English skills in our elementary schools. And in
HS DD can write papers in French and read literature she couldn’t of if she only had to take French in Elementary school.</p>
<p>It helps us that we live 4 hours from Montreal, and the school takes French students up there a couple of times a year. It’s exciting for daughter to be able to shop and dine out with friends a couple of times a year speaking only in French and being understood!</p>
<p>As I mentioned, I learned Hebrew and English reading and writing pretty much simultaneously (though I grew up speaking English)- this entailed learning two different sets of vocabulary, types of grammatical rules and alphabets starting in pre-k. I don’t think that this made it any harder for me or any of the other people I know to speak and write English grammatically or to understand it (I have 800s on both English sections of the SAT, personally). Our Hebrew is not nearly on the level of our English, but that’s because we treated Hebrew as a foreign language and English as more dominant, something that we focused on because, of course, we live in the United States.
I think it’s perfectly possible to learn two languages simultaneously at a young age- in fact, I personally think it was beneficial for me, looking back. It’s funny how, learning both languages at the same time, I clearly recall times when I knew how to say something in Hebrew but not in English (actually, thinking of that, there are still a couple words like that… ) and I think that the bilingual process helped me understand more about language in general.
One thing I do admit to hating about starting Spanish so late is that as I was already in the mode of switching between Hebrew and English, adding Spanish to the mix really confused me, and I kept on mixing Hebrew and Spanish vocabulary and grammar in my sentences (“que sha’ah es”- a mistake I actually made in class when trying to ask “what time is it”).</p>
<p>"However, in order to be completely fluent (without accent) you almost always need to start by the age of 2-3. "</p>
<p>Not really. I know many kids who came to USA with Spanish only. They start learning English in elementary school as ESL. By the HS time, you won’t be able to distinguish them from native speakers. It’s very common, if fact.</p>
<p>As I history major I’m required to learn at least 1 foreign language for graduate school. Luckily I already speak 2 fluently & I’m working on another. I’ll have to add a 4th for my major.</p>
<p>Are we arguing about studying languages? I find studying another language to be mind-expanding. It’s a complete reorientation.</p>
<p>D2: started French in lower school, then added Latin in ms, then took up Arabic in hs and Chinese in college. No, not fluent. Call it an inquiring mind. D1? French, Latin, Ancient Greek- and now Georgian (living there,) which is compared to some language from LOTR. What the heck, why not? </p>
<p>Not everything is about ultimate perfection.</p>
<p>Some people can’t afford to go abroad for extended periods or have other life circumstances keeping them from doing so - yes, elementary school is the IDEAL time to begin studying a language, but we should not RESTRICT people’s options concerning language study in high school and college. My HS/college language study has served me well, and I’ve been learning exclusively from native speakers. I would have been paying the same for college regardless and languages are what I’m interested in, so it’s not too expensive for me. To work in languages, most places these days require a degree if you’re not (and sometimes even if you are) a native speaker.</p>
<p>Californiaa: Do you think elementary and middle school kids can understand and appreciate the beauty of some excerpts from the books written by Hugo, Goethe, Cervantes,…?
Also, can we teach AP English literature to most elementary and middle schools kids?</p>
<p>While I agree that foreign languages can and maybe should be taught at an earlier age, I don’t understand the desire to throw FL instruction away in high school and/or college. I can’t believe students can’t handle a FL class with other classes. What valuable time is FL instruction taking? </p>
<p>Do people really want high school to become so narrowly focused? Already, education in the US is losing PE, visual arts, and music. I would hate to see FL go away as well.</p>
<p>As for FL instruction in college, foreign language departments are probably one of the cheaper departments to fund.</p>
<p>I do know young kids can learn languages easily, I learned one other than English and the ease has been studied. But I believe languages can be taken on at any age one wishes. Some people have a facility for this, others don’t. </p>
<p>As for travel/living abroad to learn, sure. But don’t fool yourself that it’s cheap- unless you are old enough to take on work or have something or someone funding you. (I learned German this way- but we were under an academic grant.) Little kids living abroad with parents, sure- and they forget quickly, too, once they leave that environment. </p>
<p>What I am uncomfortable with is, again, the utter black-white of all this- the idea one can’t, shouldn’t, or that there is only one best way. If you are in college, it is not so tough to add a language course to your schedule. Some believe the variety of classes (alternate learning styles) is an enhancer. ymmv. If it were so easy to learn via immersion, many immigrants, including some in my own family, would have better skills in English.</p>
<p>" If it were so easy to learn via immersion, many immigrants, including some in my own family, would have better skills in English."</p>
<p>There is a huge difference between an immersion classroom (all in the target language) where the lessons are structured to lead to effective language acquisition on the part of the students, and what some language instructors would term “submersion” where the learner steps out into the world in the new language without any support. Many immigrants don’t have access to formal ESL (or whatever -SL instruction) or just plain don’t have time to go to those classes, and so don’t have the opportunity to truly master that new language.</p>
<p>I think everyone agrees with the OP points on starting FL as early as possible. I think the disagreement is with stopping in HS. I think it should start in K and continue throughout HS and into college. If you grow up in a family that us not bilingual it takes that much more practice to become proficient. </p>
<p>Both my children had Spanish from grade school on beginning with private primary to public IB middle and HS. D is continuing in college. She has tested into higher level S. </p>
<p>Her school didn’t just teach speaking and grammar but also culture and literature in the foreign language and essay writing. To me that us a big reason to continue in HS. true proficiency is reading writing and thinking in another language. </p>
<p>OP is fortunate to have bilingual children but for many of us the education throughout school is critical. </p>
<p>I do know people who teach English in China and they were required to be fluent in mandarin before taking the position. Immersion through foreign travel us not always possible or practical.</p>
<p>Most immigrants aren’t immersed. They live in communities where they don’t need to speak the language. When I learned French, I lived with a French family that never, ever, ever admitted they spoke a word of English. When I lived in Germany, I went home and spoke English to my husband, but we did read German papers and watch German TV, and spent the rest of the day with people speaking German.</p>
<p>""Many schools don’t have the funds to include language instruction. "</p>
<p>The cost of teaching FL in HS or in elementary in the same. In fact, it may be cheaper in elementary.</p>
<p>Why can’t they shift funding for FL to elementary school? And drop FL from HS?"</p>
<p>Personally, I disagree with this. I feel one should learn a foreign language due to interest (or other personal reason) instead of being a requirement. If one is interested in a FL, they will strive for fluency, but if one is required to learn it, they might try to get past with the bare minimum needed to pass exams.</p>
<p>I just enjoy them. At this moment, I’m in Arabic 101, I’m learning German on a website called Duolingo, and I have books for Nahuatl and Quechua out from the university library. I’m also planning to study abroad in Japan (with my Japanese from high school and some additional learning). I’m a computer science major, but learning other tongues renders me feeling very connected to the world and confident, even when they will have little practical use.</p>
<p>If, however, this post is meant to question why languages are typically emphasized in universities rather than <em>earlier</em>, rather than at all (although I would contest that they receive widespread promotion even here), I agree with the OP’s sentiments.</p>
<p>It really isn’t that hard. Here in Ontario, that’s how kids learn French. The immersion kids have half the day in English and half in French. The non-immersion schools still start French language classes in the early years and they continue through high school. Students who have had French class since first grade are taking some of their high school classes in French, e.g., math, history, etc. It isn’t a continuation of French language skills as it would be for students who are just learning a language. My girls had the ability to add Spanish, German or Latin to their mandatory French classes in high school. Two of them went on to further study the second language in college and spent time in countries where the language was spoken. </p>
<p>Language is more easily learned at a young age but that doesn’t mean that later language instruction isn’t worthwhile.</p>
) and I think that the bilingual process helped me understand more about language in general.