Why Michigan??? (vs. Duke)

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>Hello everybody,</p>

<p>Although some of you may perceive this thread as painfully premature, as I have yet to even receive my acceptance from Duke and very well might never open a packed package (yay for polyptoton) with a Durham address on it, my curiosity and impatience have gotten the best of me again. I have been accepted to the University of Michigan and the Honors Program within that school and am an instate student. I really do love Michigan for so many reasons, but I also love Duke. I visited campus last year and of course have extensively researched Duke online. Based upon all of my research and my visits to both schools I truly love both about equally. This is causing a big conflict and an abundance of indecision which is stressing me out.</p>

<p>(Ramblings aside) I turn to you for help and input upon which school I should choose.</p>

<p>My personal pros/cons of both and personal info:</p>

<p>As of right now, I would like to pursue a double major in Political Science and Biology/Biochemistry so I could prepare for either pre-law or pre-med. As I progress through college I hope to firmly decide upon one career path because I truly love both disciplines and possible careers (not picking them for money/status at all, my two favorite classes BY FAR in high school have been AP Bio and AP Gov, I'm really into politics and know a ton about it, have interned at the MI house of reps, but also have always loved anatomy and bodily sciences). Being instate for Michigan would obviously make it much cheaper than Duke, although I am fortunate enough to not have to pay for my undergrad education. However, I still feel badly choosing Duke over Michigan unless it's truly worth the cost. Also, I'm gay; I know that both Duke and Michigan are liberal and overall accepting, but I'm looking for a place in which the gays aren't one separate group; I don't want to be isolated and want a school where I wouldn't only be known for being gay. Having said that, hooking up is not my thing and I'd prefer there to be enough people to have a viable dating scene. </p>

<p>Duke
Pros-Easier to Double Major in, better sciences/pre-med than Michigan, better weather, more prestige, easier to live on campus, easier to study abroad.
Cons-Cost, size, Durham, political science is not as good as UMich, I'm guessing it's not as good as Michigan for gays either, football team</p>

<p>Michigan
Pros-Amazing political science program, Honors program, instate tuition, Big Ten Sports, Ann Arbor, gay life
Cons-harder to double major/study abroad/register in general, less prestigious, not as good in the sciences/premed. </p>

<p>Currently, I'm leaning towards Michigan.</p>

<p>****When I say that Michigan's bio/pre med is less than Dukes or that Duke's poly sci is worse than Michigan's, I DONT mean that either program is bad, they are both very good, but I was just comparing them to each other. </p>

<p>Sorry for posting such a long rant, I really would appreciate any input!</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Really? Do you realize which forum you’re on? I doubt there’s a poster here who will agree with you there.</p>

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<p>^Yes I realize and I know that Michigan has great prestige as well, and they are VERY close, but if you look at all the rankings (Yes I know they aren’t very important, I said im leaning towards Michigan) Duke is higher and my dad (who is an impartial Wisconsin grad that works high up in the business world) has said that Duke has a slight edge.</p>

4

<p>michigan pre-med is really good simply because of michigan med school. also, as pre-med you’ll want to save as much money as you can due to med school prices. study abroad and double majoring are both incredibly doable at michigan, and this is assuming four years and no summer classes. registering isn’t very tough either, especially when you come in with a lot of ap credits. prestige is your only argument, but that won’t make a difference outside of the business world your dad is involved in, especially not as a pre-med student.</p>

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<p>

Why is Michigan harder to double major? Both of your intended majors are in LSA; there are no additional requirements.</p>

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<p>There’s no doubt that Duke is more prestigious than UMich. Not by much, but I mean it’s private, and much harder to get into, even if both universities are comparable in terms of academic strength. Remember, prestige is based largely off of arbitrary things like reputation/name recognition, i.e. not necessarily things directly under the school’s control, so it’s not really a knock to a certain school to say another is more prestigious than it. This is coming from someone who wants to go to UMich. But being accepted into the honors program certainly raises your individual prestige at UMich at any rate.</p>

<p>In response to your post, if I were deciding between the two schools with your circumstances, I would probably go for Michigan. I feel like more of your more important criteria point towards it rather than Duke (price, gay life, social life (Ann Arbor/Big Ten)). And, in terms of academics, it’s a toss-up. Either school will offer great education and opportunity.</p>

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<p>stweta4, you obviously need to wait to hear back from Duke. Assuming to do get in, you make valid points above, although I should clarify a couple of them for you:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Double majoring at Michigan is easy. Michigan does not have a core like Columbia or Chicago. The number of required electives to graduate from Michigan is very manageable. As such, this leaves students with much flexibility to double major. I do not see how double majoring at Michigan would pose any more difficulty than double majoring at any other university.</p></li>
<li><p>Duke is indeed more prestigious than Michigan in some quarters. For instance, high school students and no-so-educated parents will rely heavily on the USNWR undergraduate ranking. This ranking has Duke ranked among the top 10 while Michigan is ranked in the mid to high 20s. Regionally, Duke will obviously be more prestigious in the mid-Atlantic and Southeast while Michigan will be more prestigious in the Midwest. But in the real world, where nobody takes the USNWR undergraduate rankings seriously, or follows it too closely, Duke is not more prestigious than Michigan. Corporate recruiters and graduate school admissions committees will hold both schools in equally high esteem. Highly educated professionals, such as chief engineers, researchers, lawyers, doctors and executives at major firms (Fortune 500 companies, Wall Street, Biotech, Petrochem etc…), on average, will have equally high regard for both universities</p></li>
</ol>

<p>In your case, assuming Duke does not give you substantial financial aid, Michigan makes more sense, both from a social and a financial point of view.</p>

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<p>

There you go, forget about finances and decide based on every other thing that matters to you. Moving on…</p>

<p>

  1. Wait till you are accepted at Duke and get your financial aid estimate. I was in-state at Michigan and chose Duke over it; the difference in COA was about $25,000-$30,000 for me and my parents are upper-middle class ($100-150K range). For what Duke offered me in resources and opportunities, I felt like that was an acceptable premium to pay over Michigan.</p>

<ol>
<li>Michigan’s Political Science program at the graduate level is a hair better than Duke’s but there are few places as exciting to study the subject as at Duke where you"ll be exposed to classroom with an incredible amount of racial and geographic diversity (percentages and not absolute number which is what matters in the classroom) as well as a variety of political views (Michigan is radical liberal while Duke is liberal with a decent amount of conservatives thrown in). The class sizes will be a lot smaller and your professors will give you a lot of attention, more so than you would at Michigan where enrollments in Political Science classes will run in the hundreds even when you are a junior.</li>
</ol>

<p>Check this cool graphic out to compare the geographic diversity of the three schools you’re still considering:</p>

<p>Duke
<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=198419[/url]”>http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=198419&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Harvard
<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=166027[/url]”>http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=166027&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>University of Michigan
<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=170976[/url]”>http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=170976&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Based on the enrollments of the two student bodies in 2010, there is a whopping 94% and 92% probability respectively that any two randomly selected freshman at Duke and Harvard come from two different states while the corresponding figure is a measly 58% at Michigan.</p>

<p>Now on to Racial Diversity:</p>

<p><a href=“http://admissions.duke.edu/jump/applying/who_2015profile.html[/url]”>http://admissions.duke.edu/jump/applying/who_2015profile.html&lt;/a&gt;
Harvard College Admissions § Applying: Statistics
<a href=“http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/statistics.html[/url]”>http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/statistics.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Percentage of Students who are Minorities</p>

<p>Using the above links:</p>

<p>Duke: 45-48% (3% didn’t report)
Harvard: 44%
Michigan: 25%</p>

<p>Student to Faculty Ratios</p>

<p>I used the 2009-10 Common Data Sets for all 3 schools…</p>

<p>Duke-8/1
Harvard-7.2/1
Michigan-16/1</p>

<p>Student Body Strength</p>

<p>I used the 2009-10 Common Data Sets for all 3 schools…</p>

<p>SAT MATH
Duke: 680-780
Harvard: 690-790
Michigan: 640-740</p>

<p>SAT CRITICAL READING
Duke: 660-750
Harvard: 690-780
Michigan: 590-690</p>

<p>SAT WRITING
Duke: 660-760
Harvard: 690-780
Michigan: 600-700</p>

<p>ACT COMPOSITE
Duke: 30-34
Harvard: 31-34
Michigan: 27-31</p>

<p>You be the judge stewta4, would it be as enriching to study Political Science at U of M as Duke or Harvard? Remember all 3 schools have top 10 departments in the field at the graduate level.</p>

<p>I will get to the rest of your points tomorrow.</p>

<p>SOURCES
<a href=“http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/CDS2009_2010_final.pdf[/url]”>http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/CDS2009_2010_final.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://ir.provost.duke.edu/facts/cds/CDS%202009-10.pdf[/url]”>http://ir.provost.duke.edu/facts/cds/CDS%202009-10.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“U-M Office of the VPIT-CIO | Office of the VPIT-CIO | University of Michigan”>Office of Budget and Planning;

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<p>Stewta, keep in mind that Goldenboy hates Michigan with a passion. Read though his history of posts on the forum and you will see how he often attacks Michigan unprovoked. For example, read the Basketball thread on Michigan winning a share of the Big 10 title. </p>

<p>At any rate, do not worry about Duke until you are admitted. Once you are, I suggest you post a similar thread, including financial obligations, on both the Duke and Michigan forum. Unlike GoldenBoy, many Duke students and alums on the Duke forum are capable of giving you objective points of views. For obvious reasons, they will not post on the Michigan forum.</p>

<p>One poster I definitely recommend you seek out is warblersrule. He is a Duke alum that loved his experience there and will represent Duke well.</p>

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<p>Once again a delusional Dukie thinks his university is on the same level as Harvard. If you want to attend a school where there are many students who are bitter about not getting in HYPSM, then Duke would be an excellent choice.</p>

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<p>“I used the 2009-10 Common Data Sets for all 3 schools”</p>

<p>In 2011-2012 Michigan has an ACT composite of 28-32.</p>

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<p>"Percentage of Students who are Minorities</p>

<p>Using the above links:</p>

<p>Duke: 45-48% (3% didn’t report)
Harvard: 44%
Michigan: 25%"</p>

<p>Duke has had a “whopping” 20-25% of it’s undergaduates reporting themselves to be Asians over the past five years. Michigan had less than 12% this year. I personally don’t consider Asians to be an undersized minority in U.S. colleges based on their percentage of the population here. Also that same minority, which is usually high at Duke, is more than likely why the average SAT and ACT scores are as high as they are. Let’s be honest, any school that has a high percentage of Asians attending it, are going to have higher test scores on average than their counterparts.</p>

<p>[Too</a> many Asians? | The Chronicle](<a href=“http://dukechronicle.com/article/too-many-asians]Too”>http://dukechronicle.com/article/too-many-asians)</p>

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<p>goldenboy, you are living in the past if you think U of M is “wildly liberal”. As the country has become more conservative, so has U of M (although I am not trying to say U of M is conservative, just not “wildly liberal”) . Most of the kids I know who have attended U of M the last few years are avowed Republicans and would make any conservative proud (I have to say however if my son ends up attending he will proudly move the scale more to the liberal side!). I am sure Duke is more conservative than U of M but I would not call the Michigan student body “wildly liberal”. Also, I am not sure many would consider 100-150 K “upper middle” class, at least not so much to pay the difference between in state tuition and Duke. You are very lucky your parents sacrificed for you and you were able to attend the school of your dreams, but I know people at that income level who will have a hard time attending a state school.</p>

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<p>If goldenboy paid 25-30K total over four years to attend Duke after scholarships, and that is where he really wanted to attend, then I don’t think that was too much of a premium to pay. That being said, goldenboy constantly belittles The University of Michigan into trying to convince others that these two schools are leagues apart. Inevitably the comparison of Duke to one of the so called upper Ivies is inserted to further his points. Michigan and Duke are academic peers. Neither school is an overall peer of HYPSM. There are plenty of top students attending both Michigan and Duke. A top student will have no problem finding like peers in any discipline he/she choosed to major in. Ultimately, the differences and reasons to attend either should be based on fit and the ability to pay.</p>

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<p>I normally do not post on other colleges’ forums, but goldenboy’s posts troubled me and compelled me to post here rather than on the Duke thread. Unlike he seems to think, I do not think Duke is a no-brainer. To address a few points:</p>

<p>Academics: Academically, Duke and Michigan are peer institutions. Graduate and professional schools will not treat them differently; Duke’s higher admit rates are related to higher MCAT and LSAT scores. Biology and political science are very strong at both universities – and many others, for that matter. Prestige is a non-issue, both because I do not believe it is worth consideration here and because you plan to attend graduate school. </p>

<p>Sports: Duke is obviously known for basketball, and the atmosphere on campus is electrifying. Even students who enter college rather apathetic about athletics (as I did) somehow get swept up in the enthusiasm. Having your major rival less than 10 miles away and easily reachable by bus creates a very strong and unusual rivalry. Other sports like golf and tennis (less exciting, admittedly) are also good. Michigan has football, and its record in that sport as opposed to Duke’s needs no comment. If you are raised on that sport, as my Wisconsin friends were, there really is no suitable substitute. I am less familiar with Michigan’s other offerings, but I’ve heard hockey and probably other sports are good. </p>

<p>Size: Duke is noticeably smaller than Michigan. For you, this seems to be a negative; for others, it is a positive. From my experience with other publics, I think Duke is likely to provide a fair amount more handholding and have less red tape, but a go-getter would do well at either. Biology and political science are some of the largest departments at Duke and unfortunately also some of the most impersonal; I switched from biology to a related but significantly smaller department for precisely that reason. That said, both departments are also some of the largest at Michigan, and the undergraduate:faculty ratio in political science at Duke (2.7:1) is slightly better than at Michigan (4.7:1). What difference, if any, this has on the undergraduate experience, I’m not sure. I think the experience at both will be more similar in biology; Duke has a large general biology program with multiple tracks, whereas Michigan is organized more along the lines of several departments with undergraduate majors. Although Michigan has far more undergraduate majors in biology, therefore, it also has a lot more faculty and course offerings. You may want to consider public policy as well since you have interests in law; both universities have outstanding programs, with the most significant difference being that Michigan’s program must be applied for as a current student, whereas Duke’s program is open to all undergraduates. (Anyone with the grades for a good law school should not have too much trouble being admitted; the admit rate is ~50%.) </p>

<p>Pre-med: Only UCLA produces more pre-meds than Michigan, which has more than double the number of pre-meds at Duke. How they compare, I can’t say; I’m not familiar with pre-med advising at either school. I can say that the number of freshman pre-meds (~40-45%!) is significantly higher at Duke than the number of senior pre-meds. The percentage of students at Duke applying to medical school (20-25%) is higher than at Michigan (~10%), so I would not be surprised if Duke felt a bit more intense than Michigan. Duke has entirely too many pre-meds, in my opinion, so perhaps I am not the most unbiased person. Research is easily obtainable at both institutions; UROP at Michigan is quite nice, and Duke has long had an outstanding track record in Goldwater and NSF production. </p>

<p>Location: I’m actually pretty fond of Durham, which I think gets a bad rap. It’s ranked highly in many rankings as a good place to live, so I don’t think I’m the only one. That said, I think many of the best things about Durham - cheap prices, great food, quirky community, etc. - are things that would appeal more to a young professional than a college student. Good bars/clubs are in short supply, and 9th Street is a poor substitute for a good college town. Crime is admittedly a problem, something exacerbated by the patchwork quilt pattern of crime; there are pockets of it everywhere rather than a “bad side” of town. That said, Chapel Hill is a lovely college town and only about 20 minutes away by a bus that runs between Duke and UNC every 30 minutes, so you needn’t feel confined to Duke or Durham. Raleigh is also a very nice city and about 30 minutes away by car; many Duke students visit on the weekends for the nightlife or to explore. You are likely more familiar with Ann Arbor than I, so I don’t think I need to comment on it. </p>

<p>Gay life: As recently as five or six years ago, I would have recommended Michigan over Duke hands down for gay life. While Duke has long been gay-friendly, the critical mass of students simply wasn’t there. That has rapidly changed in the last few years, however. Duke’s LGBT center is one of the largest and nicest in the country, with an awesome and devoted staff; there are numerous active LGB student groups, and even the divinity school has one. The LGB population at Duke has absolutely exploded recently, and I think anyone looking to date could certainly do so. There are openly gay students in frats, student government, religious organizations, sports teams, and pretty much every other facet of student life. UNC down the road has an even larger LGB population, and the two schools host an annual conference in the spring that draws gay students from all over the south. Duke’s newest advance in LGB life is gender-blind housing, which is currently limited to the upperclassmen apartments on Central but will hopefully spread to West and East soon as well. Michigan, of course, has one of the longest traditions of support for LGBT students of any college and has an absolutely wonderful reputation for gay life; in terms of absolute numbers of gay students, it has the edge over Duke. Michigan also has gender-neutral housing, and more students live off-campus, which lends itself to more flexible living arrangements. </p>

<p>Cost: As someone who received a fair amount of financial/merit aid, Duke was cheaper for me than in-state UNC. This is also often the case for those from other states like California, Texas, etc. How expensive Duke will be for you depends on your income and other factors; without running a calculator, I would not assume it’s more expensive. On the other hand, Duke is likely to be significantly more expensive if you come from an upper-middle or upper class background. If Duke does end up more expensive, that is definitely something to seriously consider. Law and medical school are by no means cheap, and you should keep costs in undergrad down as much as possible. </p>

<p>Both universities are wonderful choices, and if (hopefully!) you get the opportunity to choose between them, I really don’t think there’s a wrong decision to be made.</p>

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<p>^Nice, even-handed post.
I just wanted to point out something to the OP that he or she might not have thought about regarding price.</p>

<p>You mentioned that you are fortunate you do not have to pay for your education. Presumably this is because your family is happy to pay for same.</p>

<p>If you didn’t receive merit or fin aid from Duke, you would in essence be paying about double when the dust clears in order to attend. So, that’s about $100,000.</p>

<p>If your family is terrifically wealthy, no one would feel that. If they are merely good earners who’ve saved for the occasion, just remember that those assets – that extra $100,000 – is money that could otherwise be used toward things like:
a) your graduate studies (med/law school – very hard to start a practice with boatloads of debt, and 100k would go a LONG way to reducing that
b) a graduation gift (to buy a house, start a business…you get the idea)
c) assets that are likely to transfer to you one day by will or living trust
d) assets that may benefit your family on a rainy day should their wealth not “outlive” them…eg. the recent market downturn a few years back really did strain many retirees…</p>

<p>So, just saying, with all things roughly equal, “saving” that extra money may give you or your family a much nicer future. So don’t discount the value factor. You are really blessed to be in-state for a university such as Michigan, and in saying so, I take nothing away from Duke.</p>

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<p>

This is absolutely not true; I have dozens of friends that go to currently or have graduated from the University of Michigan. I think Michigan’s basketball team’s not as good as OSU or Michigan State’s this year, but that’s just sports banter and not relevant to the OP’s dilemma.</p>

<p>

None of these three statements really correspond together. Yes, at the graduate level, Michigan and Duke are about equally strong academically with UMich being a touch better overall. However, Duke has a considerably stronger undergraduate student body which should be of utmost concern to any high school senior who is looking to enter the most stimulating and academically rewarding environment possible. Most of the learning in college happens through the discussion of ideas that take place in a small lecture, the exchange of viewpoints during the solving of a problem set, the collaboration that occurs when working on a group paper or project, the close supervision of a professor while doing an independent study or writing a senior thesis, etc. etc.</p>

<p>Despite Michigan being 4 times larger student population wise, Duke enrolls more than twice as many National Merit Scholars and probably 4 times as National Merit Finalists. If you consider that the strongest UMich students are enrolled in the Ross Business School and the College of Engineering, the difference widens for an individual looking to immerse himself amongst the most qualified peer group in core subjects like Biology and Political Science.</p>

<p>

I concur, especially if stewta was admitted to The Honors College at Michigan.</p>

<p>To the OP, you mentioned that you’ve only lived in Michigan for a year and a half, do you qualify for in-state residency then? That’s something you should verify.</p>

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<p>^For instate residency we are submitting an application to prove residency but we called and once it’s submitted (tax forms and such) I will qualify for in-state residency, although I currently do not.</p>

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<p>With instate tuition to Michigan and no money from Duke, your decision is not that difficult.</p>

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<p>Go to Blue Devil Days if you are admitted!! It’s an awesome Admitted Students Day event.:)</p>