<p>I am a prospectus for the class of 2012. Recently, I visited the Rose Hill campus and was impressed by the beautiful landscaping, gorgeous architecture, and modern facilities. I was also intrigued by the great academic opportunities and community spirit present at the school. Fordham seems like an excellent institution--and the dean explained how proud the school was to have 20,000+ applications last year. My question is, why isn't this school ranked higher? Yes, it is one of the top universities by USnews and other rankings, but I just don't understand why it isn't even more nationally recognized. I can only think that the Jesuit tradition turns away non-religious and non-Catholic students, but other than that, I don't know why this school isn't top50 national. It seems like in the upcoming decade, Fordham will be even more recognized and appreciated. Anyone have an idea why this hasn't already happened?</p>
<p>These are just my personal thoughts on that and not intended to be an official response. (I dont work for Fordham and am not paid by them in any fashion.)</p>
<p>I dont think that being a Jesuit school harms them in any way. Plenty of religious schools out there have excellent reputations. Though Fordham is decidedly more Jesuit than some other well known 'Jesuit universities' meaning more Jesuits on campus and they adhere to the Jesuit way of doing things. To me, being Jesuit is a HUGE plus. Wonderful priests, outstanding educators, open minded, excellent intellects, warm and caring people.</p>
<p>Decades ago when the Ivy League was formed many schools could have been and should have been included, but our nation was still very much an old boys club (most of the schools were in fact all male, including Fordham at that time), and all the Ivy candidates were decidedly upper class WASP oriented institutions. Its not hard to imagine them being somewhat prejudicial against a Catholic school....indeed, most Catholic colleges were formed BECAUSE of that prejudice...to ensure that Roman Catholics, many of them immigrants from Ireland, Italy, France, Germany, Spain and Portugal got a chance at post secondary education, in an environment that was supportive of their faith and values. I am NOT saying that Harvard, Princeton and Yale are anti Catholic institutions. They are not. But there was a historical bias against Catholics that continued long into the mid 20th Century. Was that a factor? I dont know. Fordham was always a highly respected academic institution and a very feared sports dynasty. They used to play UNC Chapel Hill and kick the crap out of them! Fordham is on the move again, as are many second tier schools due to the demographics being so wicked in college applications and people recognizing that while Harvard Princeton and Yale are fabulous colleges, they are not the only game in town.</p>
<p>Recognition and "rankings" are highly controversial, much of which is based on library size, endowment size, SPORTS recognition, celebrity alumnae, etc. Fordham has always enjoyed a superb reputation in the business community: its graduates are well prepared, hard working and solid people. It has enjoyed a superb reputation in academia: its graduates get into outstanding professional (medical and law schools) and graduate programs around the country. It has many Rhodes, Fulbright and Truman scholars in its ranks. Last year, I think they had 8 Fulbright scholars, three of which were in the History Department. Take a gander at Fordham's faculty and their credentials and I will stack them up against the faculty at MANY institutions, including some well known Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>What hurt Fordham the most was the reputation of the Bronx in the 70's. That is over now. The Bronx is really quite pretty, the area around the campus is lovely and friendly. </p>
<p>As more and more kids realize that getting into an Ivy is increasingly difficult, and getting into Chicago, WashU, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Tufts, Vassar etc is also more difficult than it was even just 10 years ago....many will come to Fordham, like what they see, and say, "this is ME!" As Fordham's scores rise, their rank will also rise..as it did even this year by several spots. (Though I regard USNWR rankings as really rather silly. There are MANY outstanding colleges around the United States.)</p>
<p>What you should focus upon is whether you "fit" into the Fordham family. Academically (its rigorous there), socially and emotionally, and if you can afford it.</p>
<p>And nothing helps a school better than getting the positive word out...across the four corners of our country. Spread the word!</p>
<p>This year's class has kids from the Carolinas, Texas, California, Washington State, Maine, Florida, Illinois, etc. Yes, the majority are from the outstanding Catholic and private schools in the northeast: New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, but a lot are applying to Fordham from around the country.</p>
<p>Great post. For that matter, every non-Ivy deserves its shout out to the public. It's nice to hear about people who aren't Ivy-centric.</p>
<p>And Fordham's outstanding law school, which is very difficult to get into, and extremely well-respected, should not go without mentioning.</p>
<p>I don't even know what Jesuit is.</p>
<p>Considering the religious atmosphere, would it be wise for somebody not of the same religion to apply to the school?</p>
<p>friedokra, thanks so much for your post. It was extremely helpful, and everything that you reported makes a lot of sense. In regards to MannyS's question--from the tour, and from some friends of mine that attend Fordham, I have heard that a person of any religion can attend the school and feel comfortable. Religion requirements, though present, offer course material that is broad and not exclusively Catholic. Plus, the Catholic faith is similar to most christian-based religions, and those beyond that, so I am sure that a person of any faith could benefit just from the community atmosphere driven by the campus ministry.</p>
<p>Fordham is unable to create a diverse class. its just not possible for the public school kids in nyc to be able to afford private school. its as basic as that.</p>
<p>so they drop there grades and lower the decline rate so that the school hoping they could attract more people to achieve balance in culture.. but this is a direct effect on its rank.</p>
<p>O WELL. CANT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. if you know whats right for you just go ahead and attend Fordham, ranking means nothing..</p>
<p>Americans and its desire to categorize everything shows how superficial America is..</p>
<p>Do you think the Bronx just has a generally bad reputation across the country? I don't know since I live here, and am, therefore, biased.</p>
<p>First, I think 1989DC is off the mark on his remarks about Fordham lowering its numbers to get a lower decline rate and become more diverse. Diversity is a sensitive subject and its dealt with by varying methods and success rates at different schools, but I dont know a single school that lowers its standards intentionally to attract more minorities. They may have a minority enrollment program, I dont know. But I can assure you that Fordham's admission standards are STEEPLY on the rise. This year's class had the highest avg. gpa/class rank/sat scores ever, according to Fr. McShane. It is expensive, as are ALL private colleges in the United States. Fordham has aggressive financial aid. </p>
<p>to Want2b: No, I dont think it has a bad reputation, just some question marks and that recent documentary series the Bronx is Burning, about circa 1970 Bronx is not helping. But it can be easily overcome by good admissions officers and marketing if they really put to work on it. Fordham historically had a plethora of outstanding candidates from the tristate local catholic high schools, and Jesuit Prep schools around the country. But now as it seeks to enhance its image and improve its rank, it has to reach out to other regions.</p>
<p>As for the Jesuit ethics and ethos they are a treasure. Intellectuals of the highest order and most certainly NOT closed minded. They thrive in other cultures and many Jesuits work in Third World Countries. I am Jesuit educated and I know a former Jesuit University President (not Fordham) who introduced me to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, over 30 years ago. Not kidding. </p>
<p>Jesuits are prized for their own scholarship as well as what they impart upon their students.</p>
<p>Georgetown, sadly, has become very secular and has almost lost its Jesuit identity and its really sad....and I think very costly to them.</p>
<p>Fordham openly desires to become the number one Catholic University in the United States. They have to reach Boston College, Georgetown, Notre Dame and Holy Cross to get there. But in 10 years they may well be there.</p>
<p>Its a school on the move. Big time.</p>
<p>Great things are happening at Fordham and as they seek brighter and brighter students, it shall happen for years to come.</p>
<p>are you really sure they have aggressive financial aid?
i was offered a 93% financial aid off the tutition based on an 89 average 1320 old SAT. yes i am a minority. if i told you how much i paid for private school. you'd puke. i dont feel lucky..</p>
<p>Fordham provides a good education, which is quite true. </p>
<p>Since the quote function doesn't quite work on this forum, i'll give this a whirl</p>
<p>Re: Religion - </p>
<p>You don't have to be religious to go to fordham, BUT you do need to realize that Catholicism has a very STRONG presence on campus; the evening masses will be standing room only while the football bleachers have less than 100 people in them, if you get the picture.</p>
<p>Since you have a fairly strong religious presence on campus, you also encounter the problem of a lack of diversity of thought amongst both students and faculty; you are not on a progressive/liberal campus - keep that in mind.</p>
<p>Endowment - </p>
<p>This hurts fordham in terms of rankings. I saw a CNN Money profile of the school stating that Fordham has less than $300 million for an endowment as of 2005/6. I'd hope that the number has risen slightly since then.</p>
<p>Please note that a relatively small endowment does hurt them when you profile them against other schools that are dripping with money.</p>
<p>Re: Financial Aid</p>
<p>Not the greatest, really. And I am giving them a heavy benefit-of-the-doubt on that one. Please don't call fordham's FA 'aggressive' - the majority of students with aid packages have packages that are rather heavy in loans.</p>
<p>At Emory, I pay less than 1/4 of what I paid at fordham, with the added perk of no loans - for comparison purposes only.</p>
<p>Re: The Bronx</p>
<p>Fordham's Rose Hill Campus is basically along East Fordham Road, close to the belmont section. Fordham road is a pretty rowdy and busy place, and most people that grew up or live in the bronx are very aware that it is not an area that you call safe.</p>
<p>True, the Zoo and Botanical Gardens are quite nice, but most students don't spend much time there - they usually take the D train into the city, or hand out along Arthur Av for fun.</p>
<p>When you go out into the surrounding neighborhood, you NEED to exercise a healthy amount of judgment and common sense; Drunk students, or even sober ones in the middle of the day, are crime targets. I'll copy & paste Fordham Security's latest "Crime Alert" email if necessary.</p>
<p>Honestly, with average SAT scores and other academic metrics where they are, Fordham's rankings amongst the USNWR is quite appropriate.</p>
<p>Also, just because the school has a pretty campus and a good staff doesn't mean it should be automatically revered. You can't forget the fact the fordham doesn't have an engineering department, is not prominent in the research area, has no medical school nor remarkable graduate schools, and is not as strong in the science field. Serioudly, how can you compare fordham to a school like ohio state or pitt that have good medical schools, hospitals, a much larger campus, and maybe 30X the number of majors that fordham has??? </p>
<p>Fordham is good for a liberal arts type of education and for i guess for business, but like most liberal arts college, it can't be compared to large research universities and private schools becaus it only covers a fraction of their academic range. And like greg said, there is nothing special about their student body/faculty/departments that you can't find in perhaps hundreds of schools out there. Like I said, a nice liberal arts undergrad education and neat architecture, but that doesn't hold weight in rankings.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for your responses...the points expressed make sense and I definitely understand the meaning of the rankings now. Frasifrasi, however, clarified why I was confused about Fordham. Other than this school, I am looking predominately at top 25 liberal arts colleges. Fordham, in my spectrum of comparison, seems to be a very good liberal arts college. If I were looking for a true "university" I think I would have a different viewpoint. Focus on engineering and the sciences seems like it would generate money--both from donors interested in the fields and alum that scored high powered jobs in technology companies. A medical focus, and an ajoining hospital (like Georgetown) could also generate the "esteem" that Fordham seems to be missing, a bit. It makes me consider the rank of other institutions categorized as Universities, but really more "liberal arts" (Brown comes to mind). For a good undergraduate experience, I think it would be better to look at a school less graduate focused, and, subsequently, lower ranked. Columbia, which I was originally interested in, is ranked higher but seems to focus more on their graduate students, which wouldn't benefit a BA candidate. I guess this entire discussion proves how insignificant and unhelpful ranking actually are--its better to look at how a school correlates to individual preferences rather than national profile.</p>
<p>
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I guess this entire discussion proves how insignificant and unhelpful ranking actually are--its better to look at how a school correlates to individual preferences rather than national profile.
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</p>
<p>Actually, this discussion proves just the opposite - especially with frasifrasi's points. Rankings are quite significant because it provides, at a glance, how one university stacks up against the others. Fordham doesn't have any medical centers/engineering schools or a laundry list of majors - it would not be fair to list it amongst schools which have all of these (and then some) resources. </p>
<p>Personal preferences are the most important factor in choosing a school, but rankings are there for a reason.</p>
<p>Greg-ster:</p>
<p>If you are at Emory now, did you finish at Fordham? Or transfer? I didnt say Fordham was in a lovely suburban area. And for the record, Atlanta isnt exactly known for being a crime free city. I have been there many, many times, and its pretty scary in a LOT of areas. True, Emory has higher SAT scores than Fordham, but that will change (and has changed) since the applications into Fordham are on the rise bigtime. My D visited Emory (and has a couple of friends there.) We know people with "influence" from Emory and Atlanta. They begged her to apply. She had zero interest in Emory. Not her cup of tea. If its yours, congrats! If Fordham was not, sorry 'bout that and glad you are happy now. But this is not about comparing schools. That is what kids do on the Ivy Threads all the time and its silly.</p>
<p>As for which schools have which resources and high rankings, I can mention a school or two that dont have much in the range of majors, a weaker faculty (looking at their credentials), no medical school, a lower ranked law school, but because they have a much smaller student body, and are HIGHLY selective, they get kids with higher SAT scores....but I can tell you that their academic experience, and job opportunities are not like Fordham's. (Its not Emory, but its one of Emory's biggest competitors.) Picking a college also has a lot to do with culture and where you want to go to school and where you want to work when you graduate, or where you want to go to graduate school. Rankings are often more important for superficial people...the elitists. They miss the point of Fordham. For most kids at Fordham, the Jesuit influence is a prime reason they are there, whether they are Catholic or not. My D has friends at Wake and Duke this year who are actually jealous of her going to school in NYC, one of them saying, "why didnt I do that?"</p>
<p>Emory is a great school. It has Jimmy Carter, if that appeals to you. I wish you the best.</p>
<p>But you wont find me here looking for ways to slap Fordham.</p>
<p>As for Fordham's faculty......I find that comment humorous...because a substantial percentage of Fordham's faculty went to Ivy League schools....I think there are almost 20 faculty members from Princeton, several from Harvard and Yale, a bunch from Johns Hopkins and UChicago. Its Dean of Students earned his PhD at UNC-Chapel Hill.</p>
<p>I would gladly compare Fordham's faculty with any school you have mentioned.</p>
<p>But what I dont quite understand is why you both are on Fordham's thread here bashing it. Ohio State is a decent school with 45,000 students. If that turns you on and you like big time national sports, go for it.</p>
<p>I transferred from Fordham to Emory...mainly because Fordham was my super-safety when I applied out of high school, and I was subsequently not thrilled with my academic experience there. The main catalyst for me actually leaving was the kids I encountered while I was at Fordham.</p>
<p>I think that the main point being made here is that, while fordham may be a good school and a match for many, a school with an average SAT in the 1200's is NOT top-50 material, much less anything close to ivy-league.</p>
<p>Fordham may make lots of people happy - but that does not make it gods gift to higher education, as folks are implying.</p>
<p>I know kids that got accepted at Berkeley, and turned it down</p>
<p>Now we would all say that is one high ranked school- lots of research, world reknowned, etc</p>
<p>why did they reject Berkely, they didn't want to be on a huge campus, they didn't want to be a number, they didn't need EVERYTHING in one school</p>
<p>We can talk about medical schools, we can talk about engineering schools, we can discuss schools that spend large amounts on government research, but imagine that there are some really smart students that don't NEED a school that has an amazing engineering program, or that pumps out med students</p>
<p>many students are not interested in medicine or engineering, they have wider views, and some students don't want campuses with 200plus classes, and classes taught by TAs</p>
<p>to each his own, I am sure you will be ecstatic at Emory</p>
<p>Some us just don't think Fordham desevers the bashing it is getting here, and need to consider the source</p>
<p>Fordham isn't getting bashed in this thread; there is simply too much blind praise going on in the forum.</p>
<p>Every school has its faults, which is why when folks start suggesting that Fordham is Ivy-League quality and is brought down by rankings, other folks point out some of the very obvious faults (Medical centers, engineering, endowment, available fields of study, etc).</p>
<p>Fordham might fair better if it were ranked amongst very large LAC's, not amongst rich/enormous universities. Really, its resources and facilities do make it more of a peer to the average LAC, especially when one factors in the emphasis on educating students as individuals.</p>
<p>Greg: I think you have a couple of issues going on. One, you felt for some reason like you were working below your potential by being at Fordham and felt slighted...and wanted to be at a higher ranking and more prestigious school. That is a highly subjective matter. I never suggested that anyone with stats that qualify for Princeton (as an analogy) would be happier at Fordham or find their nitch there. But some might. On the other hand, I know of a couple of cases of kids going to Princeton who left after ONE semester because they were so unhappy in the social scene and the competition. If we are happy at Fordham, why does that bother you and why are you still posting on Fordham threads if you left it behind and moved on? </p>
<p>Look, this is not about a personal discussion. Fordham does have avg. SAT's in the mid to upper 1200's. But that does not mean that there are not kids there who scored much higher. And judging people by their SAT score is beyond ridiculous. You will find that out when you get out of college and start working. </p>
<p>I dont know where you are from originally. Perhaps you didnt fit into the social scene at Fordham for some reason. I dont know. No school is perfect for everyone. My D had zero interest in Emory. I know kids who turned Emory down to go to Furman. Why? Who knows....something about fit, something about the campus, something about sports, I dunno.</p>
<p>I didnt say Fordham belongs in the Ivy League today. I said originally it was considered...and was slighted....for reasons unrelated to SAT scores, because when the Ivy was formed the SAT did not exist. Fordham had some tough years, as did MANY colleges in the 60s and 70's. It is not only on the way back it is gaining a well deserved respect nationally and is rapidly gaining in the ranks (as if that really matters...), because the quality of its students is rapidly increasing, its on solid financial ground (though its endowment needs to grow...and it will....) and the kind of education it provides is superb. Its not MIT or CalTech or even Purdue (engineering). But Fr. McShane aims to return Fordham to the lofty ledge of being the number one Catholic University in the United States within 10 years and he may well get there. He is very ambitious. BC came from relative obscurity and some terrible financial distress with a Hail Mary Pass and some national sports coverage then admission to the ACC (all of whom are amazing academic schools). People who got into BC ten years ago would be rejected today. In ten years, that may well be the case at Fordham. And you, having been a Fordham student, should APPLAUD that, not tear it down and sneer at it from Emory.</p>
<p>I am sorry you were unhappy at Fordham. Not everyone likes the Core Requirements and for some the classes are a bit slow at first until they get to their intended major. But the Jesuits have a distinct philosophy about college and what it is supposed to be. If you want frenetic academic competition, dont care a twit about sports or much else except running around nattering about "I am late, late, late for a very important date...I am a triple major in Philosophy, BioChem, and Spanish....and I have to graduate in four years or I will be a failure and I have to go to Harvard Medical School or I will be a failure!" then I can recommend you transfer to WashU in St. Louis. Because that is what we heard (almost verbatim) from the girl who gave us the tour the day we were there...and we didnt see many happy faces and we heard kids complaining about cutthroat experiences etc. Its higher ranked than Fordham by a bunch, so if that turns someone on, go for it.</p>
<p>Nor did I say Fordham should be in the top 10 or even top 25 of national universities yet. Nor do I care. We are at Fordham BECAUSE its Fordham. Its in New York (an education by itself), its extremely well connected with over 2,000 employers, many of whom are in New York and Washington, and its graduates get into Columbia Harvard Princeton and Yale graduate schools with regularity. But college is not just about the avg SAT score of your fellow students, the rank of the school and whether it has a PhD program in BioChem. College is much more than that.</p>
<p>I know a girl who CHOSE Hollins College in Virginia, though her stats were well qualified for Emory, Furman, UVa, Chapel Hill and Duke. Why? She wanted a small women's college in the South, she is an exceptional actress and writer and Hollins has an exceptional record of graduating noted authors. It isnt ranked anywhere near Emory or Fordham.</p>
<p>Lastly, I dont know if colleges can pick what grouping it is ranked in or not, LAC's, National Universities, Master's, etc. Fordham may prefer to be where they are.</p>