Why UC

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - GENERAL
21

@BeefyBill OK, here are a few stats for comparison, between UCSD (a well regarded UC) and Santa Clara (which is really a small private university, rather than a LAC):

Acceptance rate, Fall 2017:
34% UCSD
54% SCU

Composite ACT range, enrolled freshmen:
27-33 UCSD
28-32 SCU

Student-Faculty Ratio:
19:1 UCSD
11:1 SCU

4-year Graduation Rate;
55% UCSD
85% SCU

Average Net Price, per year:
$14,616 UCSD (in-state)
$38,900 SCU

Sure, SCU looks like a nice alternative – until you get to that last pairing. Yes, the SCU kids are probably happier (in general). They also happen to be richer (in general). Realistically, you may or may not be able to afford that kind of happiness. Same reason why you might choose to fly in Coach, even though most people in First Class are probably happier and more comfortable.

Some private colleges and universities are very wealthy, and offer fantastic financial aid (think Stanford, rather than SCU). In such cases, the net price may be competitive with a UC or CSU. But the catch there is that such schools are typically flooded by highly-qualified applicants, so it can be very difficult to get in.

If your daughter is attracted to elite private LACs and small universities, then she could certainly apply to some. Note that there may be more options in the Eastern US than in California. However, you might want to run the Net Price Calculators first, to see if they are realistically affordable, before encouraging her to pursue this option.

22

At a birthday party last week I was talking to their d who goes to UCSB she said that some one of her ge classes had 300 people in it and that she had to take a class called Dinosaur. Is this an extreme situation or typical. I’m not passing any judgement just gathering info. Thanks everyone.

23

Intro to Psych at Cornell routinely has 800 kids in it. If you want small class sizes, go to an LAC.

24

It looks like UCSB offers an intro Earth Science class called “The Age of Dinosaurs”. It appears to be popular, because there are 16 lab sections. My guess would be that students in non-science fields like English or History take it to help fulfill a GE science requirement. There would be other ways to meet the GE science requirement, but this course may be particularly popular, because dinosaurs are widely perceived as cool, even by non-science majors.

http://www.geol.ucsb.edu/faculty/porter/Porter_Lab_UCSB/Teaching_files/Geol%207%20Syllabus%202011_Fall.pdf

Based on the syllabus, it appears that there are lectures by a professor twice a week in a large hall. The lectures could have ~ 300 students in them. But the students are also divided into 16 smaller sections, with maybe around 20 students each, that meet separately on a weekly basis. There will be discussion or lab exercises in the small sections, most likely run by a graduate student.

This “large lecture plus small discussion section” format is common for intro classes at universities. Even at small liberal arts colleges, there will be a few intro classes (like Chemistry 101) that use this format. However, the LAC lectures will be smaller, the lab sections will be smaller, and the lab sections will be run by professors or adjunct faculty rather than by grad students.

You can get info on class sizes from a school’s Common Data Set, or the US News Rankings. For the 2017 rankings (don’t have 2018), here is how UCSD and SCU compare:

% of classes of 50 or more:
38 % UCSD
1% SCU

% of classes under 20:
35% UCSD
46% SCU

As in this case, a small private university or LAC will typically offer significantly smaller class sizes than a large public university. The USNews top-ranked LAC (Williams College) is well-known for offering classes where enrollment is capped at two. However, the privates will also cost more.

25

However, not all privates provide a first class experience (some may be business class, though). Also, smaller privates may only have limited offerings or majors, so they may be like airlines with limited destinations and therefore less attractive to many.

But some of the privates offer enough financial aid that some students may see economy class pricing from them (e.g. Stanford for some students from middle and low income families). But a first class seat at an economy class price can be extremely competitive to get.

26

UCSB Earth Science 7 is a course about dinosaurs, according to https://my.sa.ucsb.edu/catalog/Current/CollegesDepartments/ls-intro/earthsci.aspx?DeptTab=Courses . Assuming that she chose it out of many available options, what is the problem with that?

In terms of courses with hundreds of students, that is common at many medium or large universities (not just UCs) in popular lower level courses. Stanford CS 106A and Harvard CS 50 are examples with 700+ students. Even Harvey Mudd (a small LAC) has 200-300 students in its CS 5 course.

27

Better would be to go to each college’s class schedule and see if class sizes are listed for the courses of interest.

28

What’s wrong with a class on dinosaurs? As Corbett posted, it’s part of the numerous options for fulfilling the Science & Math portion of the General Ed requirements. I think it’s far better to take a class on a topic that interests you than something that does not. There’s also a class on Earthquakes, Sierra Nevada geology, Natural Disasters, and many more. They all sound pretty cool to me.

As far as the 300, yes, sometimes there are 300 people in a lecture hall. I am a UC alum; I didn’t find sitting in a large class hindered my ability to learn. Upper division classes are not that large, and there are breakout sections for the large ones.

29

My dd attended UCD, much like @Gumbymom’s son, she loved it.

The popular majors are typically huge in freshman and sophomore years.

Her freshman bio class had 500 students. She said it was “no big deal”. She said that the students liked it because the opinions and discussions were so varied, entertaining, and interesting and they had microphones so that everyone could hear the posed questions or comments. (Also, the UC departments do plan appropriately for large classes. It’s not a surprise to them.)

They have sections of tutoring and labs which are led and reviewed by grad students (who were former students). They review the professor’s materials and make sure that the students understand the concepts. If there is a concept that wasn’t understood during the class lecture or lab, the grad students take that information back to the professor. The professor then comments or clarifies the information. The review sessions are held all week long, so some students tandem up and go twice.

They also have professors’ office hours where less students tend to attend because the times given or presented are during off hours. (ex: Friday afternoons).

Not trying to sell you on the UC’s, especially if you are OOS. Being OOS an paying our fees would not be a financial plan.
Again, there are 3000+ colleges. You and your daughter have a lot of options. She doesn’t need to attend a UC.

30

@Corbett Oh I absolutely agree UCD is not worth >$60k. It depends on the price and what other schools the student is capable of getting into.

I’m dating myself, but when I was at UCD I never had problems getting classes. My UCLA kid had heard stories of how hard it was to get classes (lower division pre-reqs), but in he’s always gotten every class he’s needed. Granted he did need to go on the occasional wait list, and didn’t necessarily get the preferred time or professor. 300+ people classes? Yeah I had those for some lower division courses. Once I got into upper division courses, it was common that the classes had <50 students in them. That’s part of the experience.

31

@BeefyBill I get where you are coming from, and I am sorry people seem to be very defensive of your question, as it is very valid. I am a UCD grad - love my school. Looking at the CA system for my D3, I too wonder the same things. My husband took my D2 to San Diego State for a tour, and they literally told her on the tour it would take 5 years to graduate, and if that’s the case, then you really do need to compare costs of 5 years vs. a 4 year plan. I get it. Good luck.

32

The CS61A class at UCB has room for 1700 lol.

33

In California, the highest 4-year graduation rates (above 75%) are consistently at the top privates (of course, not all privates are “top”). The rates are generally lower at UCs, and lower still at CSUs.
http://www.sacbee.com/site-services/databases/article2575149.html

Note that these numbers are supposed to be for students who enroll as full-timers. They are supposed to exclude part-time students who don’t enroll with the expectation of graduating in four years.

SDSU’s 4-year graduation rate (29%) is actually pretty good by CSU standards; the systemwide average for CSU is apparently around 20%. The UC systemwide average is around 64%, but up to 72% at UCB and UCLA.

In theory, the faster completion time at a top private could help to mitigate a higher per-year cost. But in practice, it’s hard to know in advance whether a specific student will be affected by this issue.

34

Well my younger son is in the 29% SDSU club, since he graduated in 4 years (did take 2 summer session courses) and did come in with AP credit but very possible to make that 4 year graduate target. As stated above, students need to be flexible with class times and professors and be willing to take a few classes during the summer to stay on track. Large classes are part of the norm for the lower division courses but upper division courses can be less than 50 students and many of the large lower division courses are broken out into smaller discussion sections as previously noted in the above posts.

My attitude is that college choice is a personal decision, but I also think that any student can be successful if they take advantage of all the opportunities available to them at any school.

35

While I understand the challenge of getting the classes you need, aren’t the low graduation rates partially due to the characteristics of the kids who are attending? They might need to be working more hours to pay for school (which not only impacts how many classes they take but also their scheduling flexibility), might not be as strong students in some cases, etc.?

If you are at a private like SCU, not only do you have the familiar resources to pay for it (or receiving enough financial aid to pay for it) you probably don’t have the outside of school distractions of kids at CSUs

36

I don’t like small schools (in fact my CSU of ~10,000 was all but extremely suffocating), there was no benefit for me going OOS even with WUE, and there are certain qualities to about ~3-4 UCs where I know if I went there I’d absolutely love it. I left the CSU system for many reasons but size, research, locations, and opportunities make them really nice.

My girlfriend and 90% of my friends are all cal students. Of everyone I know, most are graduating on time if not a semester early. My girlfriend could have graduated a year early but took some “fun” classes. Everyone’s had an awesome experience at cal.

But then again my valedictorian best friend from high school would’ve suffered at all UCs.

37

One thing to be aware of about LACs: they are typically good at getting you through in four years – but they may not allow you to graduate any earlier than that, even if you have a ton of AP credit from high school.

State schools, like UCs or CSUs, generally love AP credit. If they can push you out the door in 3.5 years instead of 4, they will be happy to do that, since it frees up much-needed space for someone else.

LACs, on the other hand, are often skeptical that high school AP classes are truly equivalent to the artisanal educational experiences that they have to offer. If you do well in a high school AP class, then OK, they might let you skip the intro 101 class. However, this won’t reduce the overall number of classes that you have to take; it just frees you up to take something else instead.

So if you are thinking about a LAC or other private school, and if you were hoping to leverage your AP credits towards an early graduation, thereby saving a semester’s worth of high private school tuition, you should check their policies first. Some privates are OK with that, others are not.

38

my older son took 4.5 years to get through Chico - he made a scheduling mistake and didn’t realize a class he selected didn’t meet the last open graduation requirement. He was on track 'til then and could have done an on-line class to fill the requirement but,wanted to make the most of one more semester up there. In his experience, the people on a mission to graduate in 4 years or less do so at Chico and the other CSUs. (as with transferring from a CC within 2 yrs) Most of his classmates are intentionally taking more than 4 years - either taking 12 or fewer units to keep their GPA up (for grad school, employment prospects, etc), accommodate a work schedule or have switched majors late in the game. Class availability never comes up when I ask him about it.

There is no reason a well prepared, focused, motivated student couldn’t get through a CSU in 4 years if they maintain their focus on a prompt graduation.

39

There is no good reason to attend a UC UNLESS you are from California, then its a good deal even with the UC’s being overcrowded. Just realize that the UC’s are still highly ranked schools because of the large in state student population they have to draw on. California is in a unique position (due to the high cost of living) that prevents a majority of students from receiving FA and therefore limiting their choices to the CA public school system where they already receive a steep discount without any FA. The UC’s can be selective in there admittance ensuring a strong cohort but once you get there you are “on your own” to get the education you want.

40

SDSU’s EE department did recently change degree requirements without advance notice and without letting current students complete the old requirements (changed a required course into a two course sequence and stopped offering the old course, resulting in some students who planned their schedules assuming that the old course would be available to be unable to graduate on time). See http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-life/2074999-my-school-made-horrible-changes.html .

On the other hand, some other departments at SDSU make four year pledges: http://californiapromise.sdsu.edu/ .