<p>So, there are tradeoffs. $80K is a pretty big tradeoff for the average person. </p>
<p>Athletics at Vanderbilt and Florida would probably both satisfy a sports-lover. A Florida resident should ask whether Vanderbilt is worth the extra cost when they could enjoy great sports at Florida. Florida is an excellent flagship public university.</p>
<p>There is nothing difficult about this. It is a no-brainer.</p>
<p>Why would a sports-lover from Michigan ever pass up U Michigan to go to Duke. It wouldn’t make sense.</p>
<p>I still don’t understand why we’re working under the assumption that the best public schools are really that great. The Vanderbilt-Florida example is what really made me laugh. Do you realize that 1 out of every 5 classes Florida offers has over 50 students in it? It’s just not the same type of education.</p>
<p>So, Florida has 13% more classes over 50 than Vanderbilt. Is that worth $80K to most students?</p>
<p>Here is the number of students at top private universities with Division I sports who come from states with excellent flagship public universities. If they chose their school for athletics, they could have gone instead to their public university, watched some great football or basketball or whatever, received an excellent education, and bought a house with the money they saved.</p>
<p>Duke University 4132
University of Southern California 9600
Georgetown University 4128
Northwestern University 6508
University of Notre Dame 6436
Boston College 4120
Wake Forest University 3720
Vanderbilt University 4656
Rice University 2240
Stanford University 5096</p>
<p>Alexandre, I want you to look at the alumni giving rank according to usnews. a school like ND, for instance, is ranked 4th. Would you care to look up umich’s spot? I’ll do it for you: 84th. Here’s a few schools ahead of it: Alabama, Kansas, Michigan Tech, Missouri College of Science and Tech, Clarkson, Dayton, Howard, just to name a few.</p>
<p>But Alexandre, I definitely agree w/ you about the importance of sports for many people. I think it is legitimate to pick umich over emory or wash u. b/c of umich’s great school spirit. People don’t just go to school to learn. Its a whole experience.</p>
<p>Or at least many people don’t b/c many realize the ultimate vanity of everything.</p>
<p>thejoker0909-
If a student from Michigan wants a great education and if sports are very important to that student, why would that student choose, say, Duke, over Michigan? Or any of the following schools over Michigan?
Duke
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame
Rice
USC
Georgetown</p>
<p>what if one doesn’t live in the listed states?</p>
<p>collegehelp, for instaters, there’s no question. Sorry if I didn’t explain this, but I’m more talking about out-of-staters, who would have to pay like 44k, which is not too far off from the privates.</p>
<p>thejoker0908-
I see. Agreed. For out-of-staters, the public-private difference doesn’t matter. But most states have an excellent “showpiece” campus in their public system with Division I intercollegiate athletics.</p>
<p>Hopefulfor2012-
Which state do you live in? I’m from NY and the SUNY system does not have a flagship. SUNY Buffalo is trying to develop competitive Division I teams but has a way to go. I am not much of a sports fan so it wasn’t a big factor in my college decision. Some of the sports fans I know went to places like Syracuse or Penn State, paid the full shot, and rooted for their team. A lot of SUNY students follow pro sports like Buffalo Bills, NY Jets or Giants, Knicks, etc. but they only go to the games on break. A lot of kids develop strong allegiance to out-of-state pro sports teams and make trips with their families once or twice a season. I knew a girl who was kicked out of the Buffalo Bills stadium because she was sitting with the Bills season ticket holders and rooting loudly for Miami. She evidently offended some people.</p>
<p>If your state doesn’t have a great public university with D-I sports, then you have to pay full tuition somewhere. Or, go to the local state university and root for a nearby private uni, like SUNY Oswego students who root for Syracuse, or go to nearby pro games like SUNY Buffalo students who go to Bills games.</p>
<p>Almost nobody goes to top private schools for the sports, except the athletes themselves. This whole argument seems pointless.</p>
<p>I think having classes where the professor (or TA at many public universities) actually knows your name is worth a large sum of money. Top private universities have an overwhelmingly larger amount of smaller classes too, so it’s not just the big-class category publics get beat in. It might not be worth $80,000 depending on what state you live in, but I think in the majority of cases nowadays that number is pretty exaggerated. The private universities that are worth going to (like the ones mentioned) have fairly generous financial aid programs. Also, whatever amount is not covered by financial aid is probably going to be split up between parents and student, so it’s not just one party taking the burden of those payments.</p>
<p>Cincinnatistudent-
I think a large number of students choose schools like Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, USC, Vanderbilt, Rice because of spectator sports or because of associations between sports and the school quality. I think, for many, it is maybe 20% to 50% of their reason for selecting the school. Why else would the schools support Division I sports? It isn’t for the athletes. It is for the spectators.</p>
<p>what if you DONT LIKE your state flagship? dont like the campus, atmosphere, and want something different for the next four years. i didnt even apply to rutgers because i KNEW i didnt want to go there. and i didnt choose BC over penn state because of the biggest school spirit cause psu definetly has more..</p>
<p>weak arguement</p>
<p>I can tell you from an in-state (Ohio) perspective that Vandy is cheaper for us than Ohio State. Everyone’s circumstances are different.</p>
<p>TheJoker, I see where you and I have different takes on alumni networks. To you, alumni donation rates indicate the level of alumni loyaty and influence. By that reckoning, Carleton College has the #1 alumni network in the US and Amherst College is #2. #3 would be Princeton University. Centre College would be #4, Williams would be #5, Middlebury College would be #6, Scripps College would be #7, Bowdoin College would be #8, Davidson College would be #9 and Duke University would be #10. By that reckoning, Harvard would barely be among the top 50 (roughly 35 LACs have higher alumni donation rates than Harvard), and Georgia Tech’s alumni network would be roughly equal to Northwestern’s or Cornell’s. Personally, I would rate the worth of an alumni network by the influence of its alums and by a university’s school spirit. Sometimes, like in the case of Dartmouth, Duke, Notre Dame and USC, that translates into a high alumni donation rate. But that isn’t always the case.</p>
<p>Igellar, TAs don’t usually teach at the public elites. I was never taught by a TA personally. Then again, I placed out of intro to college writing, intro to foreign languages and Calculus I or II. At Michigan, those are the only classes that TAs actually teach. Not that it’s a bad thing. The TAs for those classes are generally very capable and the classes often have fewer than 20 students, making it very manageable for the TA. </p>
<p>The rest of the time, TAs are restricted to leading section discusions and helping the professors grade papers. Statistically speaking, 97% of courses at Michigan are taught by fulltime professors. TAs assist professors in roughly 25% of the times. The rest of the time, classes are taught entirely by professors. Most of the students I knew at Michigan, myself included, go to know several of our professors well. Many students are engaged in one-on-one research projects with the same professor for a whole academic year, or even two or three academic years. Some students get to know professors through office hours or in classes with fewer than 30 students (70% of classes at Michigan have fewer than 30 students). It is not at all uncommon for students to be invited over to a professor’s home for dinner or for students and professors to hang out at a cafe or a pub for a drink. I am sure it happens more often at smaller universities than at large schools, but the difference is not that significant.</p>
<p>alexandre, I see the flaw in looking at the alumni giving rate stats. You’re totally right about the influence of the alums, which would hurt a Carlton, for example. But even still, the best alumni networks probably have great alumni giving rates and considerable influence, which Harvard, Princeton, Duke, Notre Dame, etc. do. Then again, I’m not going to try to dispel umich’s alumni network. Their alumni giving rate is lower b/c its a public school where just as many students are unsuccessful/ decide not to donate b/c of state subsidies. Nonetheless, many of its alums probably do donate and many of its alums have considerable influence too. </p>
<p>That said, the alumni network at the most unique ugs: Duke, Princeton, Notre Dame beats out the competitors because of these school’s uniqueness. There is truly nowhere else like ND, where there is school spirit, tradition, faith, community, D-1 sports, excellent academics all in one. In a sense, such a school is not for everyone, but those who go have such a commonality in terms of values and experience through ND that they fully love and trust the following students. But alas, its time I stop bragging about ND. Umich is an excellent school as well. But ND provides more personal attention, which makes it, from a career perspective, worth it for out-of-staters.</p>
<p>Again I’m not trying to discredit umich or its fantastic alumni network. I just think that of the most unique privates is better.</p>
<p>thejoker, I agree with the concept, but what qualifies as “unique” or “better” is very debatable and subject to opinion. We each have our take on this issue. It is a matter of fit and personal preference. Of course, schools with huge and successful alumni bases and strong school spirit like Michigan or Notre Dame are probably going to have a better alumni networks than small schools with weak connections and no school spirit. But once you are talking about the top universities, alumni networks all become unique and effective in their own special way. The trick is to chose a school that fits your own personality and values. You have done so with Notre Dame. That speaks well of your wisdom. You picked a school for all the right reasons, and it happens to be one hell of a good university. This said, you must realize that Notre Dame is not for everybody and other, equally formidable schools, like Cornell or Michigan or UVa etc…, will fit others just as well as ND fits you…and to them, the alumni network as well as career and graduate school prospects will be equally as good.</p>
<p>In terms of careers and graduate school placement, there is no evidence that privates do a better job than the elite publics. Of course, Harvard, Princeton and Yale (and perhaps Stanford) are in a league of their own. But once you leave this priviledged group of schools, alums of elite publics and elite privates seem to enjoy comparable career and graduate school opportunities and accomplishments. Of course, each school will enjoy more success in particular niches, but by and large, differences are negligible and impossible to attribute to the overall quality of the univeresities in question.</p>