<p>I have assumed that the experience of watching D-I sports at
Duke
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame
Rice
USC
Wake Forest
Boston College</p>
<p>is essentially the same experience as watching them at the public flagships.</p>
<p>Is the D-I sports experience the same at publics and privates?</p>
<p>For example, I would imagine in-state loyalty would make the games at public flagships pretty exciting for in-state students.</p>
<p>Yet there are roughly 1000 North Carolina residents attending Duke who could be enjoying the games at UNC Chapel Hill (for a lot less money and still be close to home).</p>
<p>First of all, many of those 1000 might not save any money by going to UNC, if they are getting good aid at Duke. Second, many of them may not have really considered sports as an important factor in the first place. Finally, if they are NC residents, they may ALREADY be Duke fans who would never go to UNC in a million years.</p>
<p>^ Hunt has nailed it.</p>
<ol>
<li>The private school may actually be cheaper than the Flagship public. In my case that was true as USC gave me a full tuition scholarship.</li>
<li>Previous loyalty. I see this alot at USC. People who had parents and other family that are alums would in some cases never dream of going to UCLA or Cal as their 'SC allegiance is that strong.</li>
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<p>If you get a full scholarship from a university, then you are probably one of their very best students. Why didn’t you go to Stanford? (just kidding) Private universities give large grants to the best students in the applicant pool. That is not typical. On average, privates cost twice as much as publics…about $80K over four years.</p>
<p>That is an awful lot to pay for loyalty to a sports team. A very expensive season ticket. I don’t think a rational person would do that.</p>
<p>The sports experience at Rice, my alma mater, is not the same as the sports experience at, say, Michigan, MSU, Texas, or LSU (I’ve been to college football games for all five of those… beyond that, i’ve got little basis for comparison).</p>
<p>First, to get into a Rice football game as a student, you show your student ID card. Games are free for students, and students are often enticed to show up for free food. There’s a small but loyal following. Fans really get to know one another, and you can sit right on the sidelines if you care to… It’s a really personal experience. I was a little overwhelmed at Michigan, MSU, Texas, LSU, etc., coming from Rice.</p>
<p>At Rice, you get to know the athletes a lot better. Everyone has at least one friend on pretty much every team. I flew out to California weekend before last for a varsity women’s basketball player’s wedding, and a month or so beforehand, I was out in Los Angeles with pretty much the entire former varsity basketball team for her bachelorette party. (I’ve never felt so short…) I can pretty much guarantee that I wouldn’t have met any of the team’s superstars had I gone to a public flagship university, let alone become friends with any of them.</p>
<p>It’s not the same rah-rah-rah tailgate-all-day experience that you’d get at a flagship, but there’s something really awesome about seeing your friends on ESPN2.</p>
<p>Also… can’t beat Rice baseball. =)</p>
<p>Some kids are just not well suited for a big flagship school. Close friends of ours were adament that their three kids would all go the state route until the time came for #2 to start looking at colleges. It was pretty obvious that a small school near home was the best route for him. </p>
<p>Also there are kids who have other interests that may take precedence over their love for sports.</p>
<p>As a parent of a recent USC grad let me assure you that not everyone who goes to USC gets money. We were in-state in Virginia when he went to USC. We had the prepaid tuition plan there so I figured that the cost of three quarters of a year’s tuition at USC equaled four years of tuition at UVA.</p>
<p>He went to USC for a specific program that was, arguably, the best in the country; a program that UVA didn’t have. As for the sports: during Parent’s Day freshman year he made us leave the Stanford game at half time. That probably was the last football game he ever went to.</p>
<p>And, btw, this is one of the all time silliest threads on CC. I am leaving now.</p>
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<p>I simply don’t buy the entire premise of this thread, for one simple reason: who says that you actually have to attend a particular school in order to enjoy the sports at that school? You can just buy the tickets as an outsider. In fact, most of the tickets at most games at any school are available to outsiders. Granted, those tickets are more expensive than student tickets, but, frankly, not that much more, and certainly not by $84000.</p>
<p>Let me give you some examples. Take Cal. The 2008-2009 Cal football season ticket package, which includes the Big Game, is available to anybody for just $360 directly from the Cal athletic box office. That’s not a lot of money. Even if the box office is sold out, I see that the same package is available on ticket broker sites like Stubhub for less than $500. Frankly, that’s really not that much more than what you would have to pay for tickets as a student. Cal freshmen receive a student ticket package free, but Cal sophomores to seniors (and graduate students) have to pay $97 a year. Hence, over 4 years, the difference in cost would only be a little over $1000, which is really not that much money. </p>
<p>In fact, I used to work for a San Francisco-based company that bought several season ticket packages to Cal football for use by their sales guys to take out clients, despite the fact that none of the owners or top managers of the company, and only 1 of the sales guys (and a junior sales guy at that) actually went to Cal. When a Cal game came up that nobody wanted to go to, the sales manager would usually give the ticket to me. Just consider the irony of the situation: here is a manager who never went to Cal, yet he was providing me with Cal tickets. What’s wrong with this picture? But that just shows you that it’s not that hard for somebody with no affiliation to a particular school to nonetheless get tickets for that school’s games. That company didn’t pay very much for those packages, probably just a few thousand dollars. </p>
<p>Similarly, I know people at Harvard and MIT who nonetheless attend BC football and basketball, despite themselves never having attended BC. For example, I remember when Duke played BC in basketball at Conte Forum a few years ago, a whole slew of grad students and faculty from Harvard and MIT went to the game, despite the fact that none of them had any connection to BC. They went because they were former Duke undergrads. Similarly, when BYU played BC in football at Alumni Stadium last year, a rather large contingent of the Mormon community at Harvard and MIT attended, again, despite having no connection to BC. They went because they were former graduates of BYU. Now, granted, BC isn’t a public school, but the point still stands: it’s not that hard to get tickets to a school’s sports games if you’re an outsider. Sure, you have to pay more, but not that much more, and certainly not anywhere near the $84000 figure that was thrown around.</p>
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<p>I dealt with the issue of costs above. But aside from that issue, the presumption of the following quote seems to be that your state’s flagship public school’s actually have good sports teams. Pop quiz - how good are the football or basketball teams of the flagship state school of New York? In fact, how many people even know what the flagship state school of New York is? Heck, I’ll go even further, can anybody name any public school in New York whose sports teams are actually strong? Look, if you’re a New York state resident, and you want to attend a school that has strong spectator sports programs, you basically have to go to a private school or go to an OOS public school, in which case you’re not really saving any money. Nor is New York peculiar. Numerous states’ flagship schools do not have particularly strong sports teams. For example, until just recently, the football team of the state flagship school of New Jersey (Rutgers) was completely abysmal, perennially ranked among the worst teams in the country. Rutgers basketball also hasn’t been particularly good for a long time. Heck, it was just a few years when Cal was not only completely mediocre in both football and basketball (for example, winning only a single football game in 2001 and losing every single game in the Pac-10, the only victory coming against, ironically, Rutgers), but both Cal’s football and basketball teams were put on NCAA probation for academic violations. That was a tragically sad time, as usually a team that breaks NCAA rules is at least doing well on the field (in fact, that’s why you break the rules). Cal was a rare case of a school whose sports teams broke the rules, yet still played poorly. </p>
<p>Look, the point is, I fundamentally disagree with the assumption that your state flagship school always has strong sports teams. In certain states, and in certain seasons, that is true. But for others, it is not.</p>
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<p>You are again making the assumption that this matters to the students in question. Let’s face it. Many of the students are those private schools come from very rich families. For example, I know a guy who went to Stanford whose father is a prominent venture capitalist who makes 7 figures a year easily. Do you think his father really cares what Stanford costs? </p>
<p>Secondly, like I said in my previous post, not everybody lives in a state whose flagship public school is strong in sports. If you live in New York state, and you want to go to a major sports school, you should not go to your state’s flagship public school. </p>
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<p>And that’s where your logic falls down. Like I said, many students at the top private schools are rich and therefore aren’t going to be getting much aid, if any. But they obviously don’t care because they’re rich anyway. Yet, their presence drives down the “average” financial aid that that school provides to each of its students.</p>
<p>What really matters is the cost that a school is going to provide to you. Not to the average student in its class, but to you specifically. Who cares if a bunch of millionaire trust-fund kids aren’t getting any financial aid? What matters is what financial aid you are going to get. </p>
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<p>Ha! Then that just begs the question of, if you really think Cornell is “Michigan’s kid brother”, then why did you choose to go to Cornell for grad school? Why not just stay at Michigan?</p>
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<p>Why? I think it depends on how far is “afar”. Trust me, there are plenty of Cal football fans in the Bay Area who have never studied at Cal. They were just born or grew up in the area. Similarly, one of my friends is a diehard Syracuse basketball fan despite never having went to Syracuse. Why is he such a fan? Because he grew up in upstate New York, where there is no NBA and Syracuse is clearly the best basketball option available. </p>
<p>I think what people may be arguing is the ability to attend games of a particular school, but that seems to be far more of a function of geographic proximity than in attending that school per se. As I mentioned before, plenty of Harvard and MIT people go to BC games, due to the geographic proximity. But how many people who are admitted to Harvard or MIT are really going to turn it down for BC? </p>
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<p>Uh, it is a huge-brainer and it is actually quite difficult. You say the average person would consider $80k a big tradeoff. However, you neglected the fact that the average person isn’t going to be paying $80k. The average person is going to receive a lot of aid. The median household income in the US is about $48k a year, and the median family income is something in the $60k’s. With either of those incomes, you will receive plenty of aid.</p>
<p>I didn’t read this thread all the way through, but I just have to point out one thing.</p>
<p>“The median household income in the US is about $48k a year, and the median family income is something in the $60k’s. With either of those incomes, you will receive plenty of aid.”</p>
<p>NOT true for many families. My family income is “something in the $60k’s.” For one of the schools I applied to that supposedly has generous aid, I still would have to pay 40K a year. I received 15K in merit, and they said that this award “covered all financial aid I was eligible to receive.” That is not "plenty of aid. My parents can’t pay 2/3rds of their yearly income to my college expenses. And let me tell you, we are purely middle class.</p>
<p>That said, <em>sometimes</em> a private university does give similar/better aid than a public flagship. But at least not in my case…as a sports-lover, I’m off to a public flagship and I assume that’s the better decision for most also.</p>
<p>Sakky</p>
<p>You said:
“… who says that you actually have to attend a particular school in order to enjoy the sports at that school? You can just buy the tickets as an outsider. In fact, most of the tickets at most games at any school are available to outsiders.”</p>
<p>You said:
"I think what people may be arguing is the ability to attend games of a particular school, but that seems to be far more of a function of geographic proximity than in attending that school per se. As I mentioned before, plenty of Harvard and MIT people go to BC games, due to the geographic proximity. But how many people who are admitted to Harvard or MIT are really going to turn it down for BC? "</p>
<p>Now that you mention it, I, myself, made the 1-hour drive from Ithaca to Syracuse with a group to see Syracuse play Pitt during their NCAA Championship season. I think it was the second-largest crowd in the history of the Carrier Dome to see basketball. Carmello Anthony, Gerry Macnamara. It was fun.</p>
<p>But, I wonder how common it is to root for the D-I team at a nearby college. In principle, it could be an option wherever there is a public university near a private D-I university, to attend the less expensive school and still enjoy the D-I sports.</p>
<p>“Cal was a rare case of a school whose sports teams broke the rules, yet still played poorly.” That’s funny…it made me laugh.</p>
<p>Your reply to Alexandre…
“Ha! Then that just begs the question of, if you really think Cornell is “Michigan’s kid brother”, then why did you choose to go to Cornell for grad school? Why not just stay at Michigan?” </p>
<p>Alexandre actually loves Cornell. It is his second-favorite university.</p>
<p>By the way, I am pretty familiar with U Maryland and have attended a couple of football games. The student section is crazy. The rest of the stands seemed filled with a mix of students, parents, alumni, and locals, all wearing red. Tailgaters arrived 6 hours early. Can’t imagine a better time for a sports fan.</p>
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<p>But you just gave it away. “For one of the schools I applied to…” Yeah, for one. What about the others? How was their aid package.</p>
<p>Look, I am not saying that every one of the private schools will provide strong aid. But I think it is quite clear that many of them, especially the highest ranked private schools, offer extensive financial aid. Harvard, Stanford and Yale guarantee full rides for every student whose family makes $60k or less. Which state flagship school can say the same? </p>
<p>Now, if you’re just not good enough to get into schools like Harvard, Stanford, or Yale, then that’s an entirely different story. </p>
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<p>Sure. But that simply illustrates my point that sports and academics are not necessarily a package deal. You can unbundle the package. Just because you go to a school that doesn’t have strong sports teams doesn’t mean that you can’t quench your sports thirst through other means. Trust me, there are plenty of sports nuts at Harvard and MIT. They have the luxury of living in a part of the country where all four professional teams (Patriots, Red Sox, Celtics, Bruins) are playoff-caliber teams and the BC football team is a perennial top 25 team. The only thing missing is a strong college basketball team, as BC’s team has been bad the last 2 years. But hey, it’s not like every other flagship state school has had a strong basketball team. For example, Cal’s basketball team has likewise mediocre in the last 2 years also {and it’s been years since the Bay Area has had a decent NFL team.} </p>
<p>Similarly, I would strongly suspect that many upstate New Yorkers are probably bigger fans of Syracuse basketball - whether they themselves went to Syracuse or not - than many actual Syracuse students or alumni. After all, many Syracuse students are not from upstate New York, and after 4 years there, they will move to someplace else in the country. Those locals actually live there for decades and hence have had a long time to develop rabid fanhood. </p>
<p>The point is, you don’t actually have to go to a particular school in order to become a fan of that school’s sports team, and similarly, just because you’re a sports fan doesn’t mean that you necessarily have to go to a school that has major sports. I know one Harvard student who is truly a sports supernut. Just in the last 9 months, he’s gone to the World Series at Fenway, the AFC Championship Game at Gillette Stadium, the NHL playoffs at TDBankNorth Garden, and he’s arranged to get tickets to the NBA Finals if the Celtics make it. He wouldn’t have been able to do any of that if he had just gone to his state flagship school.</p>
<p>“Ha! Then that just begs the question of, if you really think Cornell is “Michigan’s kid brother”, then why did you choose to go to Cornell for grad school? Why not just stay at Michigan?”</p>
<p>First of all, I said kid brother, not ugly step sister! LOL! I did not mean it in a derogatory way. What I meant is that, although they are similar in many ways and share similar roots, Michigan is older and larger, not better. Secondly, the reason I chose Cornell is for the program of Industrial and Labor Relations. I wanted to pursue a career in HR.</p>
<p>Public schools are often more expensive than privates if you’re out-of-state.</p>
<p>Alexandre, I’m glad we could come to an understanding on something. For the record, I chose ND over Cornell b/c ND was just the perfect fit where I will be most happy. </p>
<p>Anyways, with regards to careers, I think you misunderstood me again. Let’s take umich vs. ND for example. Yes, umich grads, especially ross, have no problem finding a job. Many ND grads also have no problem finding a job. But at umich, one has to seek the job and has to be more proactive than at ND with the personal attention, just the advantage of school w/ 8000 ugs vs. 25,000 ugs. Hence at ND, within 6 months of graduation, over 99% of the students are either in grad school, doing service, or employed full-time. That kind of rate cannot be matched by a public school where the hand-holding is scaled back a lot. Granted, a kid who choose umich over ND could probably end up w/ the same job, but he may have to be a bit more proactive, particularly if he is at the bottom of the food chain at umich.</p>
<p>thejoker, along with its huge size, Michigan attracts many recruiting companies on campus. And I mean MANY! To be more exact, roughly 1,000 companies recruit on Michigan’s campus each year. Just so that you understand how significant that is, schools like Harvard and Cornell, which have 20,000 students and are, by no means considered small, usually have anywhere from 400-600 companies recruiting on their campuses. And thejoker, jobs, particularly good ones, never just fall on one’s lap. You will have to make a serious effort and take an active and participatory role during your junior and senior years of college to land a job that meets with your approval and expectations.</p>
<p>I concede that sports lovers seem to find an outlet for their passion no matter where they live or go to school. I went to Camden Yards two weekends ago for an Orioles-Yankees game and was surprised to see two brothers sitting two rows in front of me from my hometown. One is a math PhD student at Maryland and one is a math PhD student at Caltech. The brother from Caltech was probably the most vocal fan in the stands…and he was rooting for the Yankees. he had his yankees cap and shirt on and was ostentatiously signaling strikes and outs on the Orioles along with the umpire. So even Caltech digitheads can be sports enthusiasts and find an outlet on the opposite coast.</p>
<p>I have to say, though, that about a third of the fans at Orioles-Yankees games wear Yankees stuff. It must be disheartening for the Orioles.</p>
<p>Anyway, sakky, I am not sure how many students at the elite D-I privates are too wealthy to care about the cost. I still think the private-public cost issue is important for most of them. </p>
<p>Nor do I know for how many students at elite D-I privates sports was a major draw. I get different impressions from different people. I think there is a segment of the student population at these schools of undetermined size for whom sports was a major factor, if not the most important factor, in their choice. Those are the students I am talking about. Most (not all) could have enjoyed sports at their in-state public flagship for a lot less money.</p>