Regional state universities catering to local commuter students are likely to be less homogeneous in age and prior non-school experience, and are less likely to have lots of residential students who live and dine with each other.
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Yes, great point.
In a way, this is the concept I am speaking of working in reverse. Maybe someone that has experience as a technician, knowing they will like the work if they invest time/money to get their degree. And a regional school is a better fit for them.
I used the phrase highly selective colleges because that is the group I am more familiar with. For example, MIT and Stanford strongly encourage students to work on their engineering problem sets in groups, rather than individually. Maybe nearly all other engineering colleges do this in their tech classes, but I do not have enough sample points to make that assumption.
A list of the 5 colleges with the largest number of engineering BS degree recipients is below. At these 5 colleges, I also list the percent that live on campus. Note that the the majority of this group live off campus. It’s not a given that everyone lives and dines with other students while in college.
- GeorgiaTech – 50% live on campus
- UIUC – 50% live on campus
- Penn State – 26% live on campus
- Texas A&M – 20% live on campus
- Purdue – 36% live on campus
The same could be said about nearly any major. For example, are I expect English majors are more likely to see a greater mix of age, ability, and background in the work force than in their college classes.
This is highly variable depending on the specific type of position and type of engineering. Some engineering work involves interacting with others almost continually throughout the day. Some involves mostly individual work. Some varies from day to day, depending on what is going on that day.
Many enjoy engineering because they enjoy solving problems or building something they can be proud of that may change people lives, and I haven’t seen anything to suggest engineers are less close to co-workers than in other fields. If you look at job satisfaction metrics, engineers tend to be better than most fields in both job meaning and job satisfaction. Engineers are often notably lower than most types of clergy, medicine, and teaching. However, they still fall well above average in both metrics. Some specific numbers are below from the Payscale survey, listed roughly in order from highest to lowest. In short, while engineering is not for everyone, I think calling it “soulless” is a stretch. Also note that CS follows a different pattern than engineering, with the lowest job high meaning % of any of the listed occupations. Perhaps your experience more relates to computer software than engineering.
Clergy – 98% High Meaning, 90% High Satisfaction
Pediatricians – 88% High Meaning, 89% High Satisfaction
English Teachers, Post-secondary – 96% High Meaning, 74% High Satisfaction
Secondary School Teachers – 84% High Meaning, 76% High Satisfaction
Internist – 83% High Meaning, 71% High Satisfaction
Nursing – 75% High Meaning, 62% High Satisfaction (nursing average falls midway within engineering)
…
Biomedical Engineers – 69% High Meaning, 82% High Satisfaction
Environmental Engineers – 70% High Meaning, 72% High Satisfaction
Electrical Engineers – 68% High Meaning, 72% High Satisfaction
Civil Engineers – 68% High Meaning, 71% High Satisfaction
Engineering Managers – 62% High Meaning, 75% High Satisfaction
Aerospace Engineers – 64% High Meaning, 71% High Satisfaction
Chemical Engineers – 61% High Meaning, 73% High Satisfaction
Mechanical Engineers – 63% High Meaning, 69% High Satisfaction
…
Manager: Non-retail Sales – 47% High Meaning, 73% High Satisfaction
Insurance – 48% High Meaning, 67% High Satisfaction
Attorney – 42% High Meaning, 68% High Satisfaction
Accountant – 38% High Meaning, 71% High Satisfaction
Editor – 42% High Meaning, 65% High Satisfaction
Financial Analyst – 39% High Meaning, 68% High Satisfaction
Retail Sales – 35% High Meaning, 55% High Satisfaction
Computer Software – 29% High Meaning, 57% High Satisfaction
Cashier – 33% High Meaning, 47% High Satisfaction
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% living on campus can be a misleading statistic. Off campus can actually be closer to academic buildings than dorms at some universities. It doesn’t mean that students are commuters or not interacting/dining with other students.
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I can’t speak from experience but the engineers I know both young and old seem to like what they do. They seem content with their lives and in many ways enjoy a good work life balance. Most are solidly mid upper middle class and are conservative in their lifestyles. Some were technically focused, others enjoyed managing. I guess I really haven’t met to many "souless’ engineers though I don’t doubt they are out there.
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Striking that folks in software don’t find their jobs more meaningful (less than a cashier) or satisfying given the current popularity of CS on these boards.
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At times, any job can feel soulless.
Our son is an engineer (EE/CS). It’s clear that what he does feeds his soul.
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If anyone feels that what they are doing is a “soulless endeavor” they should run, not walk, to a new career. The main point I’ve made with both my kids is that they should love what they do. They should be excited each morning as they prepare for the day - they should enjoy who they work with and what they are doing. If you spend 4-5 years in a college you should be able find such an opportunity.
Our S worked very hard in HS and college in a field that he loves (CS), he landed several internships that exposed him to different work environments and cultures, and he landed in a position that he loves. He works along side other like minded young professionals and sees the work they are doing as helping society. Lots of soul in that.
Play your cards right.
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My comments on engineering aren’t meant to counter other opinions, or to be the “truth.” I appreciate all experiences and opinions, like those expressed by @ChoatieMom @Rivet2000 @lvvcsf
My opinion is just one, but one that is the product of many years as a mechanical engineer in a manufacturing and R&D environment. I am always impressed with the numbers @Data10 can produce, but surveys can often produce more questions than they answer. So I offer personal, but admittedly subjective opinions.
If I had to make up numbers to communicate my perception of the issue, I might say 30% of new engineers conclude within a few years that they really need a change. This can frequently mean a change where the engineering training has been advantageous. But maybe 5-10% are simply in the wrong field, and would have been better to study something else.
That gets back to my original point about the ill-advised promotion of STEM as a career choice, and the discounting of non-STEM fields as a viable career choice. The experiences of @kiddie @twogirls and @FallGirl seem somewhat similar.
And when I say “soulless”, I don’t mean the engineer themself. I’ve had a great career, not because of what I have done, but because of all the people I have been privileged to work with.
The soulless reference is specifically directed at the frustration that some new engineers feel when they think their work has no meaning. @Data10 ’s number for English Teachers that feel their work has high meaning (96%!) is the one that jumped out at me from that particular post. And it doesn’t surprise me at all that CS is the complete opposite.
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I believe the “meaning” percentage is based on a survey question asking employees if the feel like their job makes the world a better place. And the reported high meaning score is the percentage of survey respondents who answered this question as strongly agree – they strongly agree that their job makes the world a better place.
Your earlier posts referenced engineers, rather than specifically CS. Engineers showed a completely different pattern from CS, with most engineers reporting that they strongly agree that their job makes the world a better place. While engineers did very well in this metric compared to most occupations, engineers weren’t as high as most forms of teaching or medicine. This makes sense to me because persons in teaching and medicine often see more direct positive impact of their work. Engineers often have a larger degree of separation than teaching/medicine and do not directly work with the persons who benefit from their job. For example, a civil engineer might not directly see and get to know the many people that benefit from a building or bridge they helped design/build.
I agree that engineering is not for everyone and a small minority of working engineers decide that they need a change in career (far less than 30% in my experience, and also suggested from earlier numbers posted in the thread), but it seems strange to single out engineering in this respect compared to other occupations or call engineering “soulless.”
For example, you mentioned teaching. While secondary school teaching may have high meaning, which group do you think is more likely to decide that they need/want a career change – engineers or secondary school teachers? One study estimated that 40-50% of teachers leave the profession within the first 5 years, and ~15% quit per year. Some later studies suggest that the actual figure may be lower and closer to 20-35% leaving profession in first 5 years and ~2/3 desiring to quit, but I expect it is still on a completely different level than engineering.
Here’s an NYT opinion piece highlighting the exact same issue: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/22/opinion/remote-work-gen-z.html
This is so unrealistic. Do you think your local janitor or cashier feels excited by their job everyday? Probably not. Labor is a means to an end – survival. Anyone who says otherwise is an out of touch UMC person.
bloomington019 - I didn’t initially realize you were still in school. I think you might want to re-examine some of your beliefs that seem extremely all/nothing and very limiting. If I may - you are young - this is your time to dream and think about what you could enjoy doing (while earning a sustainable living). It’s not all that bleak.
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I have read that the majority of college students are “non-traditional,” not a “sprinkling.” This is probably not true at LAC’s for the most part.
Non-traditional students are common at many commuter-based schools, but much less so at the types of schools that most people on these forums focus on (highly selective private residential colleges and state flagship universities).
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I am seeing a lot of discussion (debate) about STEM (engineering) vs humanities majors. Data do support students with engineering degrees do make more money straight out of school, but if they do not make it to management they would likely be stuck in the 2-10% raise a year. To get into management it often requires good writing and presentation skills, ability to manage people and to work across functions. Those skills are not always easy for many people, especially for people in STEM (there are exceptions).
I was one of those great quant person, but had a hard time presenting in front of large crowd in my early career. It took a lot of pressure (fear of losing my job) for me to speak in front of people. I am not a great writer because English is not my first language, but luckily I have had great writers on my staff with me providing content. It wasn’t until later in career that people have told me I was very good at presenting.
For many engineers out there, if you want to progress beyond being a doer and into management in order to make more money you do need to have some soft skills. At the same time, it is not for everyone, there is nothing wrong with being happy with what you are good at.
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I don’t think there’s any rule saying that STEM / engineer folks find this harder than humanities majors. These are difficult skills for anyone, regardless of major.
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Many may live lives of quiet desperation, but many others manage to live their lives as an adventure. That’s my recommendation to my kids. It may be very UMC of me, but I’m OK with that.
I generalize based on my experience. Of course, I could be wrong.
As noted earlier in the thread, the ACM survey and other sources suggest that students with tech degrees average a higher salary than students with humanities majors at all points in the career – straight out of college, 5 years out, 10 years out, 20 years out, etc. It’s not only straight out of school. This does not mean every student with a tech degree will have a higher salary than every student with a humanities degree. There are countless individual exceptions. Some humanities majors do advance in to a high salary position later on in the career, which can include manager among many other fields. And some engineering majors remain at lower salaries throughout their career. However, if you compare averages or ranges, there is a significant difference for different majors at all points of career. And of course there are many other important criteria to consider when choosing a major or career besides just salary averages.
Regarding management, engineering managers do tend to earn a higher salary than the engineers than the manage. However, many larger companies have comparable level tracks for engineers and managers, allowing engineers who choose to stay on a tech track to have as high a salary potential as managers. Higher engineer levels often include increasingly more team/project leadership responsibilities, so there may be a greater emphasis on many of the areas you mention as level increases . For example, I listed Google levels earlier in the thread. Continuing with the Google example, salaries by level for manager and engineer are compared below, as reported at https://www.levels.fyi . I also listed Microsoft as a comparison with a company in a different region and different level system. Note that L5/63 is a senior position that is associated with many years of experience. New grads do not start at this level – either as managers or as senior engineers.
Google Earnings by Level (includes salary + stock + bonus)
L5: SW Eng Manager = $364k, Senior SW Eng: $367k, Senior HW Eng: $324k
L6: SW Eng Manager = $490k, Staff SW Eng: $478k, Staff HW Eng: $449k
L7: Snr Eng Manager = $682k, Snr Stf SW Eng: $677k, HW = ? (small sample)
L8; Director = $1001k, Principal SW Eng: $987k; HW = ? (small sample)
Microsoft Earnings by Level (includes salary + stock + bonus)
63 – SW Eng Manager = $230k, Senior SW Eng: $223k, Senior HW Eng: $223k
64 – Manager = $282k, SW Eng = $262k, HW Eng = $238k
65 – Manager = $301k, SW Eng = $298k, HW Eng = $322k
66 – Manager = $388k, SW Eng = $353k, HW Eng = $331k
67 – Manager = $539k, SW Eng = $607k, HW Eng = ? (small sample)
68 – Manager = $792k, SW Eng = $725k, HW Eng =? (small sample)