It’s not myopic to wish the best for my kids. It’s hopeful . I think many college graduates are happy and feel great about their careers. And you don’t need to go to Stanford to begin a great career- there are many great schools out there.
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Absolutely agree, but no doubt that Stanford does provide somewhat of a head start. That being said, I’ve emphasized through this entire thread that major matters infinitely more for a career than undergrad alma mater.
This is for CS/SE and isn’t (1) typical as very few reach those levels and (2) representative of engineering as other engineering disciplines don’t generally reach those income levels.
I listed 3 tracks for each level – manager, software engineer, and hardware engineer. Hardware engineers are not CS/SE. Many other tracks are listed on the linked site, but few engineering besides SW and HW. For example a more extensive list for Microsoft level 63, which is the first (and likely most common) manager level is below. There does not apepar to be a large difference in salary between managers and others at level 63, including engineers. Other companies are available on the linked site, but the companies with the most salary entries are more SW focused than HW.
Microsoft Level 63 – Manager = $230k, Software Engineer = $223k, Hardware Engineer = $223k, Mechanical Engineer ~= $232k*, Data Scientist = $218k, Tech Program Mgr = $207k
*Choosing average of 62 and 64, since 63 mechanical has small sample.
The comparisons start on the first level for which there is a manager to compare with. There is little point to compare salaries for L2 = engineering interns or L3 = engineering new grads since there is no corresponding management track level for interns (L2) or new grads (L3) who serve as managers.
Rather than being common or representative of average salaries across all of engineering, the point was to show there is a track for both engineers and managers, and reported earnings are reasonably similar for both managers and engineers at corresponding levels. There is not a maximum terminal level on the engineer track that forces one to switch to manager track for higher salaries at the listed large companies, as the post I replied to implied. Levels go all the way to 11 on both tracks.
In any case, it’ s my understanding that L5 = manager = senior engineer is reasonably common among senior engineers at Google (both SW and non-SW) and a realistic career path. Each level beyond this is increasingly less common than the preceding one. As stated in the original post in which I listed Google levels, " <15% of engineers are L6+." While L8 may have an extremely high salary, it obviously is not common to reach high levels such as L8 = Director = Principle Engineer. at a large company, at any point within career, either on the management track or engineer track.
Non-traditional students are common at many commuter-based schools, but much less so at the types of schools that most people on these forums focus on (highly selective private residential colleges and state flagship universities).
Of course. But the fact remains that the majority of college students are “non-traditional,” and with online programs, they are not limited to commuter schools at all. And some selective liberal arts colleges do have programs for non-traditional students, especially women’s colleges like Smith and Wellesley. Ivies too: Harvard Extension, Columbia General Studies, Brown RUE. BU has an online degree completion program, UMass has University without Walls, I could go on and on. Clearly many working adults, including those with families, feel that a college degree is going to pay off.
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Major matters if you intend to be a nurse, accountant or engineer straight out of college. Not everybody knows exactly what they want to do before the age of 22.
I know a psych major (recent graduate) who had a research position analyzing formant frequencies of speech sounds. Believe it or not, there are companies out there that look for these skills.
I know a political science major who interned for a major school district and then got a policy job in DC.
The 2 sociology majors I noted who were employed before senior year ended- one had an internship where they were specifically looking for sociology and biostats students.
My daughter, the dreaded biology major, did undergrad research for a well known research hospital as well as a public health organization affiliated with water safety. She also continued with her foreign language and passed the test at the hospital on campus - this allowed her to provide translations within different departments in the hospital.
My point is that all of these experiences lead to more experiences…which lead to interviews…which lead to jobs. Those jobs help shape your interests and career path, future degrees, etc.
There are many successful psychology majors out there- it’s really about what you do, IMO.
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Yes. Including those who go on to grad school in Psychology. I personally know at least 5 young people who have chosen this route and have careers as psychologists. Mental health professionals are badly needed these days.
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Absolutely!!! And we also can’t discount the role of social workers as mental health professionals.
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Yes, i’ve seen the chart… and I agree, that long term, the STEM majors typically make more money, especially since they start out higher. but, it just all depends on the person and what they decide to do with the degree. For example, I’m on a team/in a department with about 25 people… and to clarify, that’s about 24 humanities majors + myself (I’m the only STEM person). I’d guesstimate that the average salary is around 100k. I don’t think I am on an entire team made up of outliers, and I’ve seen this happen in reverse as well. I have friends from college that were marketing majors making 100k+ as software engineers. My ex was a STEM major who decided he’d rather work at a warehouse for 20/hr. My one friend got his degree in mech eng and decided he hated it and wanted to become a software developer, so he did that. It all depends on the people and what they decide to do or not do with the degree.
People on this thread are acting like people are doomed if they don’t want to study STEM and it’s just not true.
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As noted up thread, all big companies have heads of marketing, sales, HR, finance, IT, operations, and now new roles in sustainability, equity, diversity, e commerce, etc… While not everyone is going to make it to senior level roles, there is a pathway for all different types of majors to be happy and successful.
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Yes, absolutely. If an excellent writer is forced to become an engineer, s/he at best would become a mediocre engineer in all likelihood, making below average engineering salary, and vice versa. So these salary ranges are only meaningful for those who have the capacity to be at least average in a few, likely adjacent, career categories.
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Of course, some people may be good at both writing and engineering.
Perhaps one reason why engineering has higher median pay is that the educational requirements apply “weeding out” before graduation*. The weaker engineers are more likely leave engineering before trying to enter the profession, so they do not count in pay surveys. In some other fields, the “weeding out” does not happen until after graduation, so the weaker entrants’ lower pay or difficulty getting employed shows up in pay surveys.
*Not necessarily due to intentional weeding by the college, but because those who are not that good at it or do not enjoy it see no point in staying in a high-work major.
You mentioned that you work in tech, so it seems surprising that 96% of your team is composed of humanities majors (or maybe you mean non-STEM majors, rather than humanities majors?). Even if the guesses about co-workers salaries were reliable, this doesn’t sound like a typical career path. In any case, in the post you replied to and multiple other posts I’ve explicitly stated that there are countless individual exceptions. Some humanities majors start out at or advance to higher salary levels, and some tech majors do not reach higher salary levels at any point in career. There are a wide variety of possible outcomes for almost all majors. Nevertheless, there are significant differences when you compare averages, ranges, or most likely outcome. Listing an exception does not change this reality.
Engineering positions generally expect new engineering hires to start out with engineering knowledge + experience that is important to be successful on the job. Only a small portion of new college grads or experienced workers have this valuable tech knowledge + experience. This difference between employer demand and available supply is a key reason why such positions often have high salaries. Many (most?) engineering job listings explicitly state the applicant must have a related engineering degree as a filter for this desired background. The ones that don’t restrict major generally have a technical knowledge type portion of the hiring interview, which allows the employer to compare tech ability/skillset between different applicants, and confirm the applicant obtained the valuable kowledge/skillset through other means, such as self taught. For example, a SWE employer might ask applicants to solve a tech problem by writing a short C++ program/algorithm, if the job involves programming in C++, then compare efficiency of algorithm, coding style, speed of execution, … between different applicants.
This tech knowledge requirement make it challenging for a marketing major or mechanical engineering major to just decide that they’ll use their degree to be software engineer/developer, like your example. A similar statement could be made about most other majors. Some companies may hire certain applicants from unrelated majors+background who self learn and do well on tech interview, but not all of them. And applicants without related major may be at a severe disadvantage for first tech job, when there are multiple candidates to choose from. The point is the major matters for entering tech… not just how you use your major, or differences in ability/background of specific individuals.
Not all tech jobs are programming jobs. This is such a misconception. You can work at a VC firm which invests in early stage companies, you can work at a bank which underwrites investments in tech, you can be a marketing or PR person at an agency which focuses on tech. None of these roles require a lick of programming.
CC has such a narrow view of the job market…
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I think that the problem is with the use of the term “tech job” or “tech worker”. Regardless of your your degree, if you work at Google as a marketing person I don’t think you are a “tech worker” or that you have a “tech job”. You are a marketing worker (or my fav word marketeer) with a marketing job at a tech company. Perhaps you work alongside SWEs that do the technical work.
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You’re a senior project director at Google (or Lyft or Spotify or fill in the blank). You lead large teams comprised of developers, strategists, marketing folks, programmers, and finance people. You aren’t a tech worker?
These are real jobs (I’ve just described someone I know well). He has a degree in a much maligned liberal arts discipline. He was hired for his managerial and leadership skills and ability to translate complicated words and concepts and ideas into “stuff that can be monetized”. His company doesn’t seem to care that he couldn’t pass the C++ programming test someone mentioned upstream.
There are thousands of people at tech companies- who are indeed “tech workers” who don’t come out of tech. Could Apple have opened Genius bars in every mall in America without hiring people who understand real estate, visual merchandising, design, graphics, psychology (they ain’t called “hourly retail workers”, which is what they are… it’s a Genius Bar after all).
The CEO of a hospital works in health care even if she’s neither a nurse nor an MD. Managerial talent in tech WORK in tech, even if they can’t program.
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No, I don’t think you are a tech worker in the strict sense. Instead, I think that you are a “senior project director” at a tech company. If you are a “senior project director” at Ford I think that are a “senior project director” at an auto company and not an auto worker.
Bravo then to the folks with humanities degrees who are at tech companies and out-earning the tech folks by a significant margin…
Your analogy falls apart a bit because in labor circles “auto worker” is shorthand for “member of one of the automotive unions”, or “would be eligible for one of the unions” (i.e. not management). Since many of the tech companies are not unionized, “tech worker” doesn’t imply the same categorization. But I get your point and since CC is not a debating society I will step down.
Note that the post said “if the job involves programming in C++” . Employers obviously would choose technical interview questions relating to knowledge/skills required to be successful at the position they apply for, rather than give everyone the same technical skills interview, regardless of which skills are applicable to the position
There is no reason to assume or imply that all tech jobs involve programming in C++ or software engineering. I mentioned software engineering as an example because the post I replied to mentioned marketing and mech engineers switching careers to SWE.
In your example, It sounds like he/she was not applying for a software engineering position that emphasized programming in C++. This is not surprising, as large tech companies employ many persons besides just SWEs and have a wide variety of different positions. I and many others have listed numerous examples earlier in this thread.