Or live near where they bury the spent fuel rods or the transportation routes.
Unless you’re living in a cabin in the woods off the grid, with no running water or electricity, no refuse, we’re talking about small gradations with EV’s.
Then there’s the obesity epidemic and how that contributes to the climate picture.
We also live in the northeast. Some of the electricity is indeed produced from fossil fuels. However…
We also get some of our electricity from Quebec, or more specifically from Hydro Quebec. This is all hydroelectric power. Quebec uses very little fossil fuels in producing electricity. The big aluminum smelter in Northern Quebec is there and has been there for many decades specifically because of their inexpensive and reliable hydroelectric power. Also some of the electricity used in the northeast comes from the Seabrook Nuclear Power plant, which is still operating.
Also, if we are using natural gas for generating electricity, this is almost entirely CH4. This is a lot of H and not much C. In comparison gasoline is mostly C8H8, which produces relatively more CO2 and less H2O.
My reluctance to get an electric vehicle is mostly the initial up front cost, plus the fact that they do not yet make them in the size that I need. However, my driving is largely split between a lot of very short drives (1 to 5 miles), and a few relatively long drives. This makes a plug in hybrid ideal if I could find one in the right size and shape for me. Even with a 20 or 25 mile electric range I would still be doing a large amount of my driving without using any gasoline. I agree that with a 30 mile one way commute and nowhere to plug in at work (both of which apply to my wife) a plug in hybrid is much less practical. This is specifically why my wife’s current car is a regular hybrid rather than a plug-in.
And of course there are now some quite good four wheel drive hybrids, which make quite a bit of sense in the northeast.
I so agree with this. I just hope we are not repeating plastic recycling fiasco 10-20 years ago. They didn’t have many good ideas on how to recycle plastic more so back then. Everyone made bags with it. We got so many bags. We had to throw them out. Would have been better to throw our plastic than throwing out after wasting resources to make bags to recycle plastic.
@Sweetgum Amazing! Do you recharge during the long trip? Where I travel, I have to watch out not to run out gas. There are stretches without a gas station for many miles. I’d think charging stations are fewer.
On the subject of fuel sources for electricity in New England - check www.iso-ne.com. There is real time data on fuel used for electric generation. As I am typing this the fuel mix is 68% natural gas, 20% nuclear, 8% renewables, 3% hydro, 1% oil. So that is what is producing the energy used in your car if you plug into the grid.
My wife bought a Tesla, and her mantra has become “love the car, but hate the company”. As she approaches the end of her factory warranty she is agonizing over what do to with it. She is not sure if she should sell it before the warranty runs out, or if she should extend the warranty. If she buys a new car, should she go electric again, or get a hybrid or ICE? If she buys a new car, my advice - whether she goes electric or not - is to go with a company that has been making cars for a long time. BMW, Mercedes, Ford and GM all have electric sub-brands or electric versions of existing cars. These companies have dealer networks everywhere, and they have been making cars for 100 years, so their build quality is far better than Tesla (see some of Doug Munro’s vehicle tear down videos on youtube).
Until there is a major tech breakthrough, EVs are really only good as local commuter cars. One simply cannot road trip with something that has a range of 300 miles (much less in the cold) and needs 45 minutes to get an 80% charge. Air Lucid is extending the range envelope (500 miles), but they are using the Tesla distribution model so you cannot access a local dealer. In short, you cannot have a EV as your only vehicle.
Which brings us to hybrids, which might be the best option. You get improved efficiency without the range limitations of EVs. They are expensive and complicated, but established manufacturers have been making them for decades and they are reliable.
I agree with much of what you’ve written. As I mentioned upthread, I really wanted a hybrid this go-around, but was unable to get one at my price point. Instead I got a fuel efficient vehicle (43 mpg), switched my work schedule to be home two days a week so my H could take the new car for his 100 mile a day round trip commute more often, and really try to avoid driving when I don’t need to (can walk or bike to destination). There are plenty of ways to try to lessen one’s environmental impact that don’t require dropping loads of $$ on an EV (that said, I would still like to buy a hybrid next go around).
We’ve driven the Bolt many times to Pennsylvania, Atlanta, Huntsville AL, the coast, and many places in between. Our conclusion is that it’s true that we have to do some planning to take the Bolt on road trips. It is harder depending on where we’re going. Anything along an interstate - no problem, we would have stopped anyway to stretch our legs or eat or whatever. If we are going somewhere remote we require a charging station and also a backup (in case the first station is down for some reason), and yes, we have had to plan routes around that requirement.
But things are getting better all the time for EV owners. When we went to the UP in Michigan we took the C-Max. Today I would feel comfortable taking the Bolt.
We don’t have to plan for our day-to-day trips around town, which is the vast, vast majority of our use of the car.
We have had the Bolt since 2017 and we are talking about what to do when the C-Max goes to our daughter - probably in three years. With the improvements in charging time and the vast improvements in charging station availability, we are ready to go 100% electric.
I hope it didn’t come off like I was “pontificating”. I was responding to GKUnion calling EVs a “status symbol” for wealthy people. The fact is that I choose to drive EV because it is better for the planet. I’m not wealthy. I don’t drive an EV for status. No one would look at me or my house or my car and think, "Oooo status symbol!’ If you knew me IRL you’d know what a laughable notion that is.
When we first had kids we had a Nissan Xterra that got crappy gas mileage and I felt bad about that and was really concerned about climate change. For me personally it was a big internal conflict that I was not walking the talk. So we sold the Xterra and bought VW TDIs and switched to biodiesel for several years (locally produced from excess cooking grease) but switched to EVs after the VW TDI scandal and after our VW TDI Golf (manual) got totaled by a guy who crossed the double yellow and sideswiped me.
Turned out we found a great deal on a used 2013 Nissan Leaf for about $8000 with less than 8,000 miles on it. That was our introduction to EVs. It didn’t have the best range, but I could feel great about driving it. When it also got totaled (on the same road by a guy pulling in front of me from a side road) we switched to the Chevy Bolt because at that time it had a much better range and we’re just not Tesla people. So far we have been very happy with the Bolt and no major wrecks thank goodness.
As far as the battery manufacturing and mining, Some of the mining operations, especially for cobalt (which is greatly reduced in modern EV batteries), are concerning, just like many of the petroleum drilling operations (and spills) are concerning. Chile, and Australia are major lithium suppliers. It’s also found in Nevada. Here are some good links.
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth5
You might like to read what Snopes has to say here: Are Electric Vehicles and Batteries Bad for the Environment? | Snopes.com
Best thing to do is walk, which we do often.
For me, when a walk won’t get me there, I enjoy road tripping in our Chevy Bolt. We can go to the beach or the mountains (200ish miles away in opposite directions) w/o stopping to recharge. I took it on some road trips to see colleges with D22 and it did great. We did have to stop to charge on some of those (going to Atlanta, etc), but it’s not bad if you’re stopping for a meal and a break anyway. We took our Chevy Volt hybrid on a whirlwind trip to Atlanta recently (went down one afternoon, back the next morning) and I had to stop to recharge my personal human battery several times. (I-85 in GA and SC is a horrible road, people!)
I do have to plan my stops (Teslas and some of the newer EVs have it integrated into the car’s infotainment GPS), but I often plan my stops anyway— like what restaurant I want to stop at for lunch or which hotel I want to stay in. I use an app like TripAdvisor or Google Maps to plan restaurant and hotel stops and similarly I like PlugShare for the reviews and ratings of chargers, but a lot of people in the EV community like A Better Route Planner, too.
All in all, I can honestly say having driven the Leaf and the Bolt I would never buy a new gas-only car again.
We did buy the plug in hybrids and my D22 is loving that plugging in part for her Ford C-Max and wishing it had more range. (She is now acutely aware of her dollars having to pay for her own gas.) We seriously thought about springing for the Hyundai Ioniq 5 when we were briefly down to just the Bolt after our old van had serious trouble (the ABS kicked on at highway speeds!), but we do not like to spend money. We quickly found the used C-Max for D22. Had been looking for a car for her for awhile and it suddenly became urgent. And then we found the Volt for a steal. The Bolt is definitely my favorite.
I guess the downside of the new battery is that if you are looking at things from an environmental perspective, this would be a bit of bad news given that the production of batteries and everything that goes into them certainly has a negative environmental impact. So while nice to you that you get a new battery, not so nice for the environment.
I have a nuclear plant relatively near where we live (also in NC) so it was interesting to see the EPA calculator. My wife and I just downsized and our old 4400 sqft home is up for sale. I have logged on to Duke’s website and interesting to see the old house sitting empty and the temp set at 81 uses the same amount as our current townhome that is 1900 sqft with 3 of us living in it.
That’s a good point. I do not know what Chevy and LG are doing with the old batteries, but the US DOE does now have battery recycling in place so I hope that they are recycling them somehow.
I know that used Nissan Leaf batteries from junkyards are hot commodities for projects. Our mechanic for our old van that tried to kill my husband was telling us how he uses them. I can’t remember what he was doing with them — maybe robot lawnmower — but a lot of people use them to store solar energy. Most of the components of EV batteries (lithium, etc) can be extracted and reused.
ETA: Sounds like they do recycle them: https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/05/ultium-cells-llc-and-li-cycle-announce-new-battery-recycling-partnership/
I’ve been driving EVs for 7-8 years and won’t ever go back.
Some of the range concerns people are expressing in this thread are about a decade out of date. With 250+ range now pretty common, and a pretty robust charging network in most metro areas and more rural areas than people realize, these concerns about range are way overblown for 99% of people.
There’s hardly any routine maintenance needed on these cars, brakes last a loooong time, and there just aren’t that many things that can go wrong or need changing vs. ICE engines.
If Volvo is your current car I’d suggest going and test driving the Polestar 2. Bring all these concerns people raised that you think might apply to you. I think you’ll find that people who are familiar with EVs can give you better info. The VW ID4 would be a good one to test if you’re thinking SUV.
Just be aware that the wait for most EVs right now is very long. So if you’re considering one within the next year, do the online reservation and refundable deposit now. For most of these you can go to the dealer/showroom to check out a demo but for the most part you then go home and order online. So the test drive right now is not a sleazy haggle-fest because the dealers don’t have any of the cars to sell.
Really, you need to drive one and talk to someone knowledgeable to see if it’s right for you.
Nuclear power may have to be in the mix to really move off fossil fuels. The biggest issue with the newer, smaller plants is the disposal of the rods. My understanding is that it will be very difficult otherwise to meet our carbon reduction goals. Natural gas, while better than coal and burning gasoline, is not neutral.
That is true, but…
And as technology gets better, hopefully the recycling processes get better too, OTOH, electric cars aren’t a very large % of the market and the market will be increasing a lot in the coming years.
Of course, that was due to a manufacturing error that resulted in a recall because the battery cells can catch fire, not something that the buyer could have controlled.
Given the value of the materials used to make battery cells, any of the returned battery cells will be recycled to mine the materials from them. The same is likely to be the case for battery cells in cars that end up in the salvage yard due to crashes, etc… Recycling businesses for cars (salvage yards) have existed almost since cars have existed.
I did thorough research online and the range issue is still a valid issue for many. I drive about 150 miles per day regularly and take many long road trips each year (around 1500 miles each way). I am very careful in some areas not to let gas run low because gas stations are far apart. There’s no way charging is any better in those areas. I also do not stop for long on those road trips. And then there is the instability of the TX electricity grid, the extreme heat and regular these days extreme cold. So for me, EV isn’t there yet. But I will consider a hybrid, but need to research more.
Nearly everything does. It’s a matter of weighing the alternatives, not finding zero impact.
If you live in Texas with the unstable electricity grid an EV like a Ford F-150 Lightning might actually be a good solution because it can be used as a generator to power your house! https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/features/intelligent-backup-power/ I believe you have to get on the waiting list for those beasts, though.
Also, it depends on what you are doing when you get to the remote area you are going to. If you are still driving around a lot, then it could definitely be problematic, but if you are parked and hiking and camping then it can be great depending on the situation. If you have electricity nearby, even 110, and you don’t need to drive you are good.
We just spent a week on a pretty remote island (only accessible by ferry or private plane or boat) with one gas station and no chargers, but it was not even a concern because you can just plug into a wall outlet and we weren’t on the island to drive around anyway. We went to the beach, rode bikes, walked, etc.
That’s why reuse, use less is a better option.
I do a long road trip. With 400 miles I get with my car, I stop only once. The car fills up before my toilet break is over. 250 miles and 45 minute charging time is a no go for me even if I can plan around charging stations.
How about 18 minutes? Newer EVs are bringing those charge times down A LOT!
18 minutes is better but still too long. In a long road trip, I don’t waste much time. Beside, with 250 miles I’d have to stop twice instead of a 5 minute bathroom break with 400 mile tank.