Williams College (Questbridge) vs Berkeley (OOS)

College Search & Selection
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I really don’t think @Malaj_Ara that you understand how these loans work.
You are assuming that you will go to Berkeley because it is prestigious and near a city. You’ve already made your decision. No one on this post has convinced you that you should go to Williams because you keep mentioning “name recognition” and prestige. So, let me get to the real problems you profess to want in exchange for Berkeley:

  • Near Silicon Valley,
    uh, not very close to Berkeley.

  • finding a job
    maybe

and

  • paying off your parent’s loans with your CS income
    uh, no.

I’ve had personal experience paying back my student loans. My children took out loans. We’ve learned from all of these experiences-good and bad.

LOANS:
So, if your parents take on a Parent Plus loan, they need “collateral” to get the loans approved and purchased by a lender. Your college is assuming that your parents will qualify for a loan with a zero income but that maybe your parents have collateral.

If your parents own a home, that’s the collateral for the first year. If they don’t own anything, then the loan wont come through for your expected amount of 1st year tuition.
If you do manage to get the money for a loan, the minute you use the money from the loan, it begins to accrue interest at a very high rate.

Oh, did I mention that the loans get sold and resold-often? Some high-risk loans, like yours will be, expect your parents to “PAY-AS-YOU-GO” to school. That means your parents would have to pay as you take classes-~$3K per month. You can’t work for those high salaries while you are in school with no degree, but that’s okay because you’ll have the “prestige” of Berkeley while your parents come up with $3K per month. It has been mentioned that living in the Bay Area is VERY expensive.

JOBS in CS
I have 3 people in my family in CS/Engineering. One is a manager at his large corporate company. Because of cyber security issues, they DO CHECK credit reports and financial status of CS applicant hopefuls, who, could be subject to blackmail or intimidation, if they owe large amounts of money. The companies don’t want employees with large financial deficits.
You would be rejected for employment at his company.

SILICON VALLEY
Not that close to Berkeley.
You need a car to get there, or figure out how to stay in the area, transport yourself, and pay $3K-$6k per month in rent if you are going to live there.
You need really good credit to live there and if you/your parents have a sizable loan, your credit wont fly. There are limited rental properties and the competition for rentals is insane. You need a minimum of cash in hand, and credit, to purchase small homes that easily run ~$1+ Million. Cost of living is VERY expensive in California.
Gas is $6 a gallon.
But you go on and continue your quest for prestige because you think that is going to be a sure return on your investment.

My nephew did what you intend to do. “It’s a UC, Mom/Dad! I’ll make the money back in no time! It’s an investment in my future and will pay back big time!”
His parents took out parent loans and then couldn’t pay the fees the 3rd year because they had no more credit.

He’s working for a pest control company now trying to repay $3500 per month. He lives with his parents in 1 bedroom of their home. He drives one of their old trucks. The interest keeps growing and now he has a wife and 3 children under 6 years. Diapers and formula are expensive.

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Honestly I would choose Williams without hesitation if the cost of the two was equal.

Berkeley is the best public university in the United States, but Williams is also the best … it is the best Liberal Arts College in the United States. Williams is as elite as it gets. Every year some applicants choose Williams over admission to Harvard, Princeton, Yale and every other elite university … including Berkeley.

If you don’t believe me, go to parchment.com. You can plug in any two colleges/universities and get an estimate for what other applicants would do. I just plugged in Williams and Berkeley and got about exactly what I expected …. 67% of applicants would choose Williams and 33% would choose Berkeley. And that has nothing to do with the scholarship. It would be a much higher percentage in Williams favor if the decision included the fact that Williams for free!

And yes, Berkeley is extremely prestigious for your intended areas of interest. But there would be some bumps in your way at Berkeley that others have alluded to, in addition to the massive $250-300,000 pound elephant in the room. Williams has very strong mathematics and computer science departments. You would get so much personal attention at Williams, and you would be going in as a VIP.

And what happens if you have a change of heart, and decide to switch majors? This is simple at Williams … not so easy at Berkeley. It may seem like your future is set in stone to you, but trust me when I say that you do not know the person that you will be when you are 22, 32, 42, 52. I just heard a podcast yesterday from an admissions officer at Pomona College - I don’t remember the exact percentage, but I think it was about 60% of college students switch majors at least once. Granted, that percentage may be less for data science, computer science and engineering, but it isn’t negligible.

This is one of the easiest decisions I have come across on CC this year. Most of the time the quandaries that applicants on CC describe are more like a choice between good merit aid at an ok university versus less or no aid at a slightly better university.

This situation is WAY more simple. One of the best colleges in the United States is offering to pay you to go to school there … or you can pay a ton of money to go to a different very good university, that honestly some people would not consider as prestigious as the free school.

Don’t overthink this … Williams is elite. Whatever you decide to pursue after college, people will know it. Grad schools will know it. Employers will know it. Clients will know it. Investors will know it.

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Since you were a Questbridge qualifier, your parents will not be able to qualify for the loans for Berkeley for all 4 years. They might qualify for the first year or maybe two. But then banks will stop lending to them and you won’t be able to return to school for the second/third/fourth year. Banks won’t loan to people who have no money. You’ll then have an enormous amount of debt and no degree, like the nephew in @aunt_bea 's post.

Go to Williams.

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Oh heavens…there was a raging debate in another recent thread about MIT and Vanderbilt. MIT gave no aid, and Vanderbilt was giving a “full-ride”.

There were all sorts of semantics in that thread, which is somewhat similar to this. However, the key issue is what is best under the totality of the circumstances.

There is NO question that Williams is the best under the circumstances. In the other thread, it was not unanimous. Here, it is.

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A crash course for the benefit of those who may be unfamiliar with the Forum Rules (which you all acknowledged and agreed to when registering)
Forum Rules | College Confidential.

When the question is posed by the student, focus on the student. That’s the purpose of the thread, not your debating skills. So no sidebars with other users of whether said adult truly believes Williams is at the same level as Berkeley. No off-topic discussions on student loan forgiveness.

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So in a nutshell, everyone is telling you to go to Williams. If you disregard all this advice from so many experienced users, you would be very foolish. The amount of debt you would incur in California would hamstring you (and/or your parents) for many years.

A counselor I went to told me that ALL of her clients who were 40 or younger were still paying off college loans! Don’t waste the incredible gift of being able to launch into adulthood without crippling debt.

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Hi everyone,

I read all the responses, and understand how 250k in loans is a foolish amount to take undergrad.

In terms of personal fit, (large urban school vs. rural) is where I am having a difficult decision rationalizing saying no to Berkeley, despite the high cost. The undergrad college experience comes only once in a lifetime, and I do value location as well, when choosing a school.

With that said, I have NOT made any decision as of now. I am not favoring either Williams or Berkeley, and would appreciate people who are familiar with both of these schools to chime in - especially about how the location in Williams could be awesome in its own unique ways, amongst other reasons.

@CottonTales
Yes, that is. 10K on top of COA. I am grateful for the opportunity for Quest bridge and Williams for not having to pay.

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You can only have one account.

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You’ve received over 80 replies.

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I live about an hour from Williams and know a number of very successful graduates. One of my kids went to college not all that far from CAL. And we also have relatives in CA who had kids who applied to and were accepted to CAL. There is no difference in the successes we see in these two groups.

Have you visited both schools?

Williams is in an absolutely gorgeous part of Massachusetts. Since I don’t know where you are from, it’s hard to compare what you will experience there as opposed to where you currently live. But let’s just say, there are good reasons very tippy top students choose this college every year….year after year…and are successful after college. Classes at Williams are not huge…not even freshmen ones. The level of individual attention students get can not be over estimated. And there are not graduate students to gobble up the opportunities! It’s amazing. The alumni network is quite good, resulting in lots of connections for grads for internships and jobs. Let’s just say…Williams students have tons of opportunities. The area has amazing arts offerings nearby. Oh…and you won’t have to work while being a student as Williams is fully funding you.

Berkeley is in the city…right in the middle of it. It’s a very large university. As noted, costs to live in that area are huge (and this is in addition to the $300,000 or so you will be paying to attend the school). I’m talking about things like going out to eat, attending concerts, doing all those things you might want to do while there. Classes, particularly lower level required ones, can be quite large. Sure, you can make connections with professors, and the like….but the individual attention isn’t quite the same as Williams. Cal has grad students in just about every field for which they offer undergrad degrees. There will be times when those grad students get the nod and undergrads don’t…for things like working with professors on campus, and jobs on campus in your field. Sometimes even getting classes can be a challenge because the school has so many students. You will likely need a job while attending college at Berkeley. And since you don’t qualify for need based aid, it will be either an on campus job that is not work study (like working in the dining hall or call center), or it will be off campus (where flexibility for your classes and exams, etc will not be guaranteed).

You will graduate from Williams (debt free) in four years…unless you cause some interruption in your studies. You probably will graduate in four years (with $300,000 in debt) from Berkeley but that is certainly not a guarantee in a very large public university.

Re: jobs. We know people who have jobs in or near the SV who graduated from schools like UMASS, Santa Clara (which is way closer and easier to get to SV than CAL), Tufts, Uconn, Tulane. Not everyone working in the SV comes from Berkeley or Stanford. SV employees come from all over the country.

I think you are way underestimating the opportunities that Williams offers…way underestimating.

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95

What about splitting it? Go to Williams for a year, see how you like it? Connect with professors, do as well as you can. If it is a poor cultural and geographical fit, then professors will more than likely help you transfer. And I wouldn’t just limit myself to Berkeley. Apply to Stanford, MIT, caltech, Berkeley. And before you leave Williams, get a paid summer internship with their career resources.

  1. you will have saved well over 50k!
  2. instead of taking other people’s word for it, you will know for yourself bad fit
  3. get another shot at top tech schools, not just ucb. Maybe with the same aid as Williams.
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We don’t always get what we want. So what if you personally prefer Berkeley to Williams? There are tens of thousands of kids who would prefer to go away to a four year school but can’t afford it - period. There are thousands, many on this message board, who were denied at their top choices and will make themselves happy at wherever they go instead. You have an amazing opportunity in front of you. I don’t know anyone who would exercise personal preference over college location to the tune of 300,000 in debt and rising - and especially not in your situation. My advice - change the way you are looking at this. Accept that Berkeley is not an option. Change your frame of mind to appreciate the opportunity you really have.

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Regardless of the other aspects of the schools, only Williams is financially doable. So that is the only choice (out of the two mentioned in this thread).

Remember, admission without affordability = rejection.

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I can’t offer additional information on Berkeley vs Williams but can comment anecdotally on the concern about attending a rural school. My D followed the $ to her second choice LAC. Granted, she was comparing two academically similar LACs… one suburban (#1) and one rural. As she hopes to go to med school she didn’t want to use up her education $ on undergrad and be forced to fund med school with loans. We could pay for undergrad with no loans, but she realized the gift of avoiding grad/med loans that would saddle her when she starts off in her professional career.

Well, her concerns about the rural location of her school have been unfounded in day to day life. She loves the beauty of the area and has tried so many new activities. She was not overly outdoorsy but has now become very involved with the outdoor club. She loves the intimacy of the campus and small town and regularly sends me photos saying how lucky she is to live there and call that magical place home. ETA: The downside is the hour drive to the nearest airport, but the school has shuttles at breaks and many kids have cars.

As others have recommended over and over, please make the best decision for your and your parents’ financial well-being. They need to retire one day. Sometimes compromises on every wish list item must be made, but I don’t see your choice as a compromise or even a choice worth serious consideration (due to the financials).

I hope you are proud of yourself!! To be accepted to both these schools is such an accomplishment. No one can take that away from you. And perhaps a fully funded grad experience at Berkeley is in your future. :grin::grin:

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So what is your 3rd option? Community college.

I am not in tech. My credit was checked b4 I started. I forgot about that.

I don’t see how you’ll get loans. That said people that take $60 and $80k in loans are on the chat board telling people how it really crushed their lives.

Btw Silicon Valley is becoming less so. For the first time ever California has lost population, a trend likely to continue as companies like Oracle (just to name one) move out and head to states like Texas and Tennessee.

You have $0 EFC. Most these kids will never step on a campus let alone arguably a top 10 campus.

When you have $0 EFC, you don’t really have choices.

And why do you think your parents would sign off ? They’d have to be beyond uneducated to do so because even a cyber criminal couldn’t rip them off this bad?

Families are gladly spending over $300k to attend Williams. Small classes. Access to profs. UCB is just another state flagship filled with bureaucracy.

Guess what. Learn to be flexible. You like the city ? Have you been in the country ? One of the most important traits in life is adaptability.

Loans…especially the crushing amount you are talking about….more than many doctors…almost assure you a stressed out, lower class life. Williams gets you a chance to find yourself in the mid to upper echelons.

Btw. Interest starts accruing right away. Interest rates will be higher than they are now as the fed will raise each month and economists are now saying we’re likely headed to recession.

But go ahead and take a chance wrecking your family that you’ll be different.

If u go to UCB you will most assuredly drop out at some point…u will scramble for a roof over your head that is guaranteed at the other….I mean I just don’t get it.

You have $0 EFC. Is there a third choice that is in range of $0?

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This thread is not going anywhere. The OP is convinced they would be giving up prestige to attend [checks notes] Williams! $300k in debt for a Questbrige-eligible family? I don’t know how that’s even possible — under any other circumstance, what lender would permit that? How can this even be a quandry? And we’re talking about undergrad. The care, attention and focus on undergrads at elite LACs is unlike anything students receive at large public research universities.

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The OP is counting on her parents being eligible for hundreds of thousands of dollars in Parent Plus Loans…which have a very low bar for eligibility. These are PARENT loans. Not student loans. These parents should not be guilted into taking these huge loans for an ill conceived perception of prestige.

Frankly, this is a shortfall of the Parent Plus loans. No one should be able to take $250,000 in Plus loans. Especially a family with a $0 EFC.

As noted above, there WILL be origination fees for the Parent Plus Loans, and this $0 EFC family will be expected to pay those up front. They aren’t small…where is that money going to come from?

This student has been given the opportunity many only wish for…a debt free education at a very tippy top school. All of the reasons for choosing Berkeley just don’t hold water. They just don’t.

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Your thinking about this decision is distorted.

Seems like you have a thought stuck in your mind that your future life will be better if you go to Berkeley. Nothing could be further from the truth. First, the finances. Your future will be stifling if you manage to take out that much in loans. That alone makes Berkeley a no-go. Add on top of that: Berkeley is bursting at the seams with students and you cannot always get the classes you want. It’s very impersonal. It is no more prestigious than Williams (in fact, I’d argue that Williams is more prestigious, if that matters to you).

This is not even a difficult choice. I promise, you will FOREVER regret having $200k in loans. You will never regret going to Williams College. The education is top notch and the alumni network will be a lifelong benefit. You can do WHATEVER you want coming out of Williams.

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TBH I’m kind of hoping this thread isn’t for real. I would rather believe that someone is just enjoying all the attention and emotional energy of these responses, than believe that there’s a real kid out there who is still seriously considering walking away from a full ride at Williams, to commit to paying the full cost of Berkeley with parent loans. (Loans that, in the worst case scenario in which the student becomes incapacitated or dies, the parents will still owe.)

If you’re for real at all, are you really the kind of person who would put your parents in this position, not because you have no other options, but because the top LAC in the United States somehow isn’t good enough for you? If so, please have them read this whole thread, because it’s obviously on them to protect themselves from a wholly unreasonable demand.

As others have said, getting the first year’s loans approved is not a guarantee that they’ll be able to borrow enough for you to finish four years. Then what - you go around and guilt extended family into cosigning? Or drop out and try to pay off one or two or three years worth of loans without a degree? This whole thing is ridiculous. Your alternative to the full ride is your own in-state flagship, not Berkeley. You are quite correct that you should never have applied to any UC school in the first place.

As others have also said… Berkeley is set up to take lots of transfers. If you can’t let go of the dream now, at least do your first two years for free at Williams, and transfer into Berkeley as a junior, thus cutting the cost in half. Meanwhile, you could even do a fully-funded sophomore spring abroad, if you didn’t want to spend even four semesters in Williamstown.

Then again, that would be taking an incredibly valuable spot, and a lot of aid money, away from someone who would actually appreciate it. So… I’ve got nothin’. Do what you want. But if you’re not willing to equip your parents with every word of advice people have given you here, before they make their decision, then asking them to sign loan papers for you would be one of the least admirable decisions I’ve ever seen on CC.

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One more thought: Being an adult means making responsible financial decisions. And in your case, the better financial decision is ALSO the better educational decision.

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