Williams College (Questbridge) vs Berkeley (OOS)

This is a great first hand example of the realities of once you are there on campus.

It made me think of the CS majors I know on campuses right now. The one at MIT rarely leaves campus because he does not have time. Location will not matter - you can take internship opportunities each summer anywhere in the world and many will have housing allowances. Spend all three summers in Silicon Valley if that is what you choose to do.

Take the opportunity at Williams as a sign - that this is beyond what you could hope for in your wildest dreams with an EFC of 0 or even an EFC of $30,000 or $70,000. Leaving college debt free is really the new American dream.

There must be someone at Questbridge that can talk to you and your parents about the realities of the huge debt you are contemplating.

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I will assume that the post is legitimate, and note that it is relatively normal on any web site for the adults responding to be a bit much for a young person to take. Most 18 year olds will not have much experience with the sort of “tsunami of opinion” that you get on public web sites. I usually try to be polite for this reason.

I strongly agree with the consensus regarding finances. There has been enough said on that issue.

However, I also would like to say something about the advantages of attending a smaller school. I had not thought about this much until our younger daughter decided that she wanted to attend a smaller school. We visited a few liberal arts colleges in our area, and I ran the NPC for Amherst, Bowdoin, Wellesley, and Williams College. For us they were not affordable. She ended up attending a small university in eastern Canada – basically the Canadian equivalent of a LAC. Canada does not use the term “liberal arts college” but has some similarly small schools (that they call “primarily undergraduate universities”). I think that her experience is similar to what you will find at Williams in many ways.

One issue is that class sizes are small (significantly smaller than you would find at UCB), and classes are taught by full professors. This provides the opportunity to get you know your professors. Also, there are very few or no graduate students around (Wikipedia says that there were 25 graduate students at Williams in 2021). This opens up options for undergraduate students to participate in internships and research opportunities. Our daughter had very good opportunities, including a paid research position over one summer that gave her academic credit, was interesting, and gave her material that she could use for her honors thesis. She also was asked to be a TA (and was paid for it).

After she graduated, she took some time off to travel. Once she started looking for a job, the research and internship experience that she had was very helpful, even when she was looking in a different geographic area (she studied in Canada, and ended up getting multiple job offers in the US). The fact that her professors knew her well and had personally seen her work (in class, in the lab, and in the TA position) gave her good references. Again this was very important in her job search.

The small classes, strong professors, getting to know your professors, and good internship and research opportunities will be just as true at Williams.

For getting a job in the US a degree from Williams would be more helpful than from a small Canadian university. Even with this however, she ended up getting three offers in four weeks. The best of these she was very happy with and is where she is currently working.

US News ranks Williams as the #1 LAC in the US. A different ranking puts Williams as the #1 LAC for mathematics in the US. As a former math major whose first couple of jobs were as a software engineer, I see a close connection between math and CS (at least for some jobs, including the ones that I got). I was not able to find a ranking for the top LACs for CS. I did find a short thread on this web site that included at least one opinion putting Williams in the top 3 LACs for CS.

If I were choosing between Williams versus UCB for my bachelor’s (which for me would be in some combination of math and computer science), and if the cost were the same, I would probably choose Williams. For a PhD I would go the other way. However a PhD at UCB, if you can get accepted, would most likely be fully paid so the cost would not be an issue at that point.

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You have nailed it
 all except the elephant in the room. How is OP going to pay for UCB? Playing devil’s advocate is great until reality has to be faced.

Assuming this post is legit, if OP thinks attending UCB for undergrad is going to lead to riches, that’s wishful thinking. It certainly is not going to lead to riches for the OP’s family.

It is completely irresponsible to subject anyone to that amount of debt for an undergrad degree.

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Acceptance to the UCB CS PhD program is probably much more difficult than acceptances to either Williams or UCB for an undergraduate degree. However, with the money saved if OP chooses Williams, s/he would likely have some other options, if not a UCB PhD. The only UCB advantages as an undergrad, as I see them, are 1) broader and deeper course offerings; 2) potential (but slim?) opportunities for meaningful research in CS (UCB has some of best CS/DS professors); and 3) better geographic location for SV internships. None of them is remotely sufficient to offset the substantial extra cost, which OP’s family can’t afford.

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Questbridge was the vehicle that the OP applied to initially. The funding, full ride is from Williams.

IMO, UC is committing admission malpractice by encouraging apps from low income OOS kids. When a private school does it (called ‘Admit-Deny’) they receive a lot of flack.

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I understand that, but from what I know about Questbridge when they came to visit the school where I work they also have some college counselors who can help parents of first gen college bound, etc
 I do not think the OP’s parents understand what they are agreeing to with the OOS California option as presented.

OP stated they applied to UCB on a whim. Not sure you could call it encouragement when OP has not come back to explain any details other than choosing between the 2 schools. I am no expert on Questbridge but none of the UC’s are partner schools so OP applied to UCB outside these partner schools.

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Absolutely, the QB counselors would help get this back in line with the original plans. The OP applied through QB in what I understand to be a somewhat curated process, but maybe that is just what the juniors in the initial program experience. They take in more just for the application process.

There are no Questbridge counselors. The Q B org is only to identify and give low income students the leg up to apply for elite schools and bring attention to them. The schools themselves provide the funding

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One either qualifies for a Parent Plus loan or doesn’t. There isn’t a situation of qualifying for a lower amount (it is up to COA for that year). It’s actually pretty easy to qualify as long as the parent (not the student) has not filed for bankruptcy in the last ~5 years, isn’t behind on major debts (like the mortgage), hasn’t defaulted on other federal loans (like an FHA mortgage or student loan).

But it is a ridiculous idea to borrow $60k year for 4 years. Their payments (not yours, theirs) would be thousands of dollars per month. If they can’t afford it now, how will they afford it in 4-5 years? Sure you can pay the monthly payments, but it will still be a loan in one of their names. You cannot lower those payments to IBR based on YOUR salary, and you’ll still have to pay on your direct loans (your payment on ~$30k in loans, because you’ll have some accumulated interest too as not all of the loan is subsidized) will be about $300/month).

I’m sure you plan on making a lot of money working in CS. Maybe you’d stay in California and get one of those big Silicon Valley salaries. Great, but you’ll also have SV rents, California taxes, California COL. It seems like you could easily make student loan payments of $3000/month, but it is a lot harder than you think.

My uncle went to Williams for undergrad and Berkeley for grad school. If you ask him where he went to college he’ll say Williams.

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I understand that. They do have a staff and I hope OP will consider getting their opinion or help even if he was not in their College Prep Scholars Program as a junior. They want to help these families.

Pre-Covid their staff visited our school twice where I work to encourage applications for QB College Prep Scholars in their junior year. They automatically roll over to National College Match.

https://www.questbridge.org/high-school-students/college-prep-scholars

College Prep Scholars are nearly five times more likely than other applicants to receive full four-year scholarships through the National College Match.

Awards for College Prep Scholars may include:

  • A full scholarship to a college summer program hosted by Yale, Emory, UChicago, and more.
  • Quest for Excellence Awards, such as $1,000 for a new laptop or other resources to help the student enhance their college application.
  • Exclusive access to a QuestBridge National College Admissions Conference — an invite-only event featuring workshops and a college fair with our college partners.
  • Personalized college essay feedback.
  • Campus visits or other opportunities from QuestBridge college partners.
  • Specialized guidance and resources for the college application process.
  • Peer-to-peer support in an online community.

Another tip for our OP - Based on these job posting for staff they are expanding to help their alumni with grad school - so go to Williams and let them help you out in a few years with grad school in California:
https://www.questbridge.org/job-opportunities

On the possible chance that this post is for real, as someone who left grad/professional school within this range of debt—one-third the debt you’d have—I say PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don’t willingly do this to yourself.

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Williams is the better school for undergrad. I would compare it to Dartmouth in terms of prestige.

Sometimes, students choose Williams over Harvard and Yale (and similar schools).




200K+ for undergraduate loans is a nightmare.

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Take the money and run baby. Also, if you are in Questbridge, you will need the additional funds for many reasons. Williams is very very well known. And a small school can really help launch you in a career.

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I have always posted on c/c that affordability is the most important thing to consider, ahead of fit or dream school, which is the case here.

“IMO, UC is committing admission malpractice by encouraging apps from low income OOS kids. When a private school does it (called ‘Admit-Deny’) they receive a lot of flack.”

The UCs are very clear that they favor in-state over out-of-state for financial aid.

California residents - “generally eligible for the full spectrum of state, federal and UC aid. For some types of aid, you must demonstrate financial need. For others (including some federal loans and scholarship programs), you do not need to demonstrate financial need to qualify.”

Out of state: “The nonresident supplemental tuition adds an additional $29,754 to a student’s cost of attendance for the 2020–21 year. UC will help you receive any federal financial aid for which you are eligible, but very limited UC financial aid is available to help cover the cost of your education.”

They’re clear that it costs about $30K more and FA is very limited. So people applying oos know they won’t get much, if any, FA. The UCs do encourage low-income families from CA to apply, that’s for sure, I don’t think they admit-deny them though, that’s one of the missions of the UCs, to get more lower-income, first-gen CA residents to enroll.

OK, OP asked about specifics for Williams, location-wise, vs. Berkeley – urban vs. rural.

I totally get it. I went to Amherst, in a very small town, and Williams seemed even more remote to me when I visited. I am a total city person. And I’ve lived in Berkeley for the past 25 years, right next to Cal. So here’s the deal.

I love Berkeley with all of my heart, otherwise I wouldn’t live here. It’s beautiful, vibrant, has tons of great restaurants, lots of live music, easy access to SF. That’s why I chose to live here and start my career here. But where you go to college isn’t where you’re going to live forever, and that’s why I would STILL pick Williams.

Little remote liberal arts colleges have to invent their own vibrant campus life if there’s nothing else around. And they do, I promise. Amherst always had tons of activities happening, from music to clubs to parties – I was never bored. It’s about 90 min from Boston, and I love cities, and I never ONCE went to Boston in 4 years. I took a few field trips around New England to go to concerts on occasion, but my entire life took place on that campus. I visited Williams for sports games (they are our #1 rival, so I should probably not be praising them :wink: )and it was a similar vibe. The college was the center of everything. I’m sure it still is.

Again, happy to talk more about Berkeley, but as an alum of a Cal grad school and 25+ year Berkeley resident
 small liberal arts college for undergrad, all the way. (THEN move here!)

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Sure but the OP probably feels they’re a better fit at UCB (for the reasons you say, beautiful, vibrant, lots of things to do), otherwise they would have committed to Williams, as discussed up thread. However we’re talking essentially a $500K swing in finances right, $250K from Williams vs paying $250K for UCB so it’s kind of hard to push UCB in that case, knowing they don’t give much, if any, FA to OOS students.

Right
and this student said
they got no need based aid from Cal. They completed the FAFSA so as a $0 EFC student, they would still get entitled federal funding
so $5500 Direct loan for freshmen
and about $6000 in Pell Grant money.

But that still leaves them short by about $55,000 a year
for Cal.