Yeah those professors aren’t just listed on the syllabus; they’re genuinely teaching the classes-- even the large science lectures. Perhaps it’s hard to imagine for those that have never actually been an undergrad at Penn in the last decade-- but that’s the reality of the experience. Sure grad students will do some grading in the larger lectures but they won’t be in the lecturer’s seat for the semester. And even if grad students do some grading, it has been my experience that professors usually do a final read-through to make sure they agree with the grad students’ assessment. Lest we forget that the Penn grad students of today are the future Ivy League professors of tomorrow… But the actual teaching at Penn is done by professors for over 95% of classes and office hours are definitely with professors barring extenuating circumstances that would make a prof inaccessible at the listed time. In the School of Arts and Sciences, at least, Penn actually doesn’t hire faculty if they don’t want to teach- it’s a literal requirement for employment.
And yes, obviously one’s research experience will vary from another’s depending on the lab, the prof etc. etc. etc. That’s true of any school. No university or college is going to provide its students with uniformly perfect undergraduate research experiences in practice. But Penn does offer WAY more opportunities to partake in absolutely outstanding research as an undergrad than schools with fewer resources and more limited scopes of research. And for the most part, these experiences are defined by the close relationships undergrads build with professors, the mentorship offered by professors and graduate students, and the substantive work made available to students throughout their undergrad careers. Nobody is exclusively getting coffee and donuts. Maybe some of the work a freshman research assistant will do will be busy-work but that’s also just the nature of the beast and part of how you familiarize yourself with new concepts and fields. Is there a job devoid of busy work? Cause I’d love to find it and make the leap.
What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense - If the professors are teaching 95% of the classes and grad students only do grading or basic work, how do grad students get the teaching experience they need to be competitive in the academic market?
Why would Penn ask their grad students to teach less and do less hands on classroom work then what they would find at other top schools? Moreover, how can Penn convince their faculty to teach more than they would at other top schools, and give the grad students less to do?
This would put Penn at a competitive disadvantage both for faculty recruitment AND graduate student recruitment. That doesn’t seem to make any sense at all.
@cue7 Those are great questions. I am interested in the answers too. I do know that D has taken 21 credits in 3 schools and has a major in SEAS (CS), a minor in CAS (math), and a minor in Wharton 1/2 done (Stat) and all courses have been taught by professors. Assistants often lead recitation, but are not allowed to teach new material.
Maybe post docs and teaching assistants teach at Drexel or Temple for experience? Idk.
Another example of a Penn research opportunity is that D had a 4 person group project for a class and the professor liked their paper. He contacted the 4 students in the group and asked if they would be interested in further developing the idea into a research paper.
He offered to oversee their effort and provide significant funding that he has available to pay for the additional data collection that would be needed to support the paper. I don’t know if this happens often at Penn, but it happened to D.
I know every student doesn’t get an amazing research experience. However, the opportunities are there for students with demonstrated skills and abilities, and there are a lot of students like that at Penn.
@Cue7@Much2learn I haven’t read this whole thread, but to address the grad student teaching question, I know that in Wharton, grad students will often teach summer classes. Additionally, Wharton professors are only required to teach 3 courses per academic year (or at least that’s the norm), which maybe is not as much as you thought.
"You have undoubtedly investigated other prestigious universities who also have fantastic professors, but Penn is unique in one notable way: All of our faculty teach undergraduates. That’s pretty unheard of. We don’t hire faculty, no matter how brilliant, who aren’t interested in the teaching mission of the College of Arts and Sciences.
In the College at Penn, 95% of courses are taught by faculty, not by graduate students, so you will get to know your professors…And, by the way, when you do encounter a graduate student as a teaching assistant or instructor, you won’t be disappointed. They lead discussion sections of large lectures called recitations and assist professors in grading, and grad students in the School of Arts and Sciences will be the Ivy League faculty of tomorrow, so many undergraduates find they are both knowledgeable and accessible."
I don’t know how Penn gives its grad students all of the advantages they need to go on to be great professors and yet they do! Penn’s grad students are hot commodities on the academic market even though the undergrads will very rarely interface with them in a substantive way. A recitation here, an exam grade there-- sure! I think I had perhaps 3 teaching assistants in all of my time at Penn. I still keep in touch with one and she’s enjoying her current teaching gig at Yale quite a bit.
@Cue7 It is definitely true that the vast majority of Penn classes are actually taught by actual Penn professors and NOT graduate students. Many classes at Penn have recitations on top of regular lecture times. These classes meet once a week and the purpose is for the TA to go over again the material that the professor went over in class and maybe also give out small quizzes and take questions. Grad students who are TAs also get valuable teaching experience from office hours, were students meet up with them individually or in small groups to ask questions and get help. Also they tend to teach some LPS classes and many summer courses. However not once in my experience at Penn have I had a class where the TA did the main teaching. It has always been a professor. On top of that, at least in my experience, professors also have office hours and are in fact very accessible to answer questions and help students deposited being very busy professionals. This has been an aspect that I have absolutely loved about Penn. It is a major research institution and churns out great volume and quality of research but the majority of professors who produce all this research really do care about undergrads too.