Williams or UPenn?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

It is far past the May 1st deadline, but for special reasons, I may still have the opportunity to make a decision. This decision has been incredibly difficult for me and I still can’t come to a choice. There are wonderful things about both schools that I love and there are particular things I dislike. I did have the chance to visit both schools and I couldn’t make a decision based on my visit, because I liked both of them a lot.

I wanted a suburban environment for college but Penn is urban and Williams is very rural, so I do not have a particular preference. Williams really is quite small (a little too small), while Penn is 10 times Williams’ size. I am undecided with my major, and I definitely want to have the chance to explore a lot in college. I’m interested in everything from international relations to architecture to physics.

I like how the classes at Williams are generally much smaller, so the teacher-student interactions are much more intimate. To my understanding, Williams students are very successful with going into top grad schools— does anyone know what this is like at Penn? I do plan on going to grad school, but perhaps after one or two years of working. Would I be able to get more real life experiences at Penn? Because the environment at Williams is so nurturing, I am afraid that once I leave, I may not be as prepared for working in the real world as I might be at Penn. From what I’ve heard, the environment at Penn can be quite pre-professional at times, which is not something I particularly like. But I do feel that at Penn, I would have more opportunities to interact with the real world, given its location in a city.

2

You’ll have many more opportunities to make Penn what you want, while the same can’t be said of Williams. There is a dominant strain of pre-professionalism at Penn (I went there for grad school and interacted with scores of undergrads), BUT, what’s notable about UPenn is the ability for different students to craft very different experiences.

If you want a nurturing environment, you can pick certain majors and certain communities (and avoid other ones), to gain that. There are certain college houses that are known for being close-knit. There are certain small majors that have a very nurturing feel.

Further, at Penn, you can explore a great city, AND you’re not far from the suburbs. Want to experience a suburb and what’s it like to be at an elite small college? Penn has the Quaker Consortium - you can take classes at Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, and Haverford. (Each college is only about a 30 minute train ride from UPenn.)

I should add: your ability to thrive at Penn will depend on your ability to drown out the white noise. Yes, there are many pre-professional students on campus. Yes, there are certain students (a minority, I think) who are competitive with one another, and yes it is a BIG school, and you’ll feel that. And yes, during OCR (on-campus recruitment), campus gets a little crazy, and there’s stress surrounding this for some students. If you ignore that, though, and focus on creating the community you want, you’ll thrive. You can build virtually any type of experience you want at UPenn.

On the other side of the coin, Williams is more isolated, and it has a very specific type of feel, because it’s so small. If you want urban amenities, they’re a lot harder to get. If you want to take more of a “real-world/practical” class or explore that environment (e.g. taking a business school class or, on a lark, attending a simulation in a nursing school class), that’s much harder to do as well.

3

@Overtures I agree this what was said above. Williams is an amazing school academically. However Penn will give you access not only to top notch academics but a huge variety of other opportunities in terms of research, variety of classes, multicultural experiences, real world experiences, recruiting opportunities, social life etc. I would personally pick Penn because it really prepares you for the outside world and you have all the opportunities imaginable available to you. Also as it was very correctly noted above, you can mold your own Penn experience as you like.

4

Another vote for Penn. It just gives you a lot more experiences, options and opportunities.

5

What Williams can provide Penn does, the opposite is likely not. My S had the same situation and committed to Penn.

6

Penn offers sub-matriculation opportunities for graduate school that are probably not available at Williams.

I have heard great things about Penn’s physics program. I think @rebeccar was a physics major. Perhaps she can tell you more. Also, in addition to a lot of flexibility in exploring your interests, Penn will just offer a broader selection of courses because of its size.

7

My D was also accepted to Williams (and Middlebury, similar,) but chose Penn after Quaker Days. The outstanding opportunities offered in the urban environment cannot be compared.

8

If you want a larger format or urban setting, the decision is easy. Academics at both will be top notch. However, Penn (especially pre-profressional)/ Wharton undergrad) has a reputation as being very competitive, whereas schools like Williams and Amherst are very collaborative. In terms of placement in professional schools, Williams is phenomenal. They place large numbers (pro rata) at the top law schools, business schools, B schools and PhD programs. Anecdotally, in my son’s class at Harvard Law School there were I, I recall, at least 5 or 6 Williams grads out of a class of ~500 and fewer Penn grads (even though it is a larger school). For what it’s worth, Williams through 2014 had 35 Rhodes Scholars, while Penn had 19, again despite the larger format. I have an affiliation with neither–just my observations. This is not to diminish Penn’s obvious prestige and quality. I do know from folks who went to Williams that the school will move heaven and earth for its students (including research and internship opportunities), and the alumni likewise are very supportive of graduates in a variety of ways. Williams also fosters a community amongst students of different backgrounds and interests. You will not suffer for opportunities at or after either. Choose where you would enjoy 4 years the most. There will not be an appreciable difference in opportunities unless you want easy access to a city.

9

Are you sure that wasn’t Penn State or another school with fewer grads than Williams at HLS? For many decades, Penn has been among the 5 or 10 schools with the largest number of grads enrolled at Harvard Law School, and I’d be surprised if that number has dropped so precipitously to fewer than 5 or 6 grads in a particular class. For example, in 2005-2006, there were 53 Penn grads enrolled in Harvard Law’s J.D. program–a fairly typical number for Penn grads enrolled at HLS–while there were 7 Penn State grads and 13 Williams grads enrolled:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/7447174/#Comment_7447174

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@JohnSSS - You’re also right to say that fit is the most important factor here.

In terms of fit, though, Williams offers a “one size must fit all” model, whereas Penn’s fit is much more flexible. You can’t get an urban experience at Williams. You can’t experience a top research university at Williams (taking classes at UMass Amherst, something Williams allows, isn’t the same). You can’t take classes in accounting or marketing or engineering at Williams.

You can do all those things at Penn, AND you could still take a bunch of classes at Swarthmore or Haverford College.

Finally, you present stats demonstrating Williams’ strength in placement. You fail to look at this, though, through a historical lens.

For a long, long time, Williams was undoubtedly a stronger school than Penn. It was more selective, had much better per capita exit options, was considered to be more prestigious, etc. Williams was really at the very tippy top.

Now, as rural schools have fallen a bit out of favor, and small LACs in particular (without the benefit of strong, direct pre-professional programming) have decreased in popularity, the landscape is a little different. Penn in particular has gained from offering an array of professional programming in an urban area. Stronger students come to West Phila, and UPenn’s placement is improving as well.

A case in point: http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/20142015lawstats.php (usually about 10-15 UPenn grads go to Harvard Law a year), and, similarly, http://www.yale.edu/printer/bulletin/pdffiles/law.pdf (on p. 159, 21 Penn grads are at Yale Law, compared to 10 Williams grads).

Per capita, Williams probably still outdoes Penn, but the gap isn’t nearly as large as it used to be.

As I stated earlier, if the OP can drown out the white noise at UPenn, it’s an excellent choice. The experience can be molded. If the OP wants a small elite LAC, though, there really isn’t a better choice than Williams.

11

I disagree with many of the posters here. You can’t really experience the benefits of a small LAC through cross registration. If you choose Penn over Williams, you’re giving up on a LAC experience. Taking classes at Haverford or Swarthmore is not the same as being a student at a small LAC. Like at Penn, much of your learning will be outside of the classroom. It matters if that classroom is a university of tens of thousands in the middle of Philadelphia, or if it’s a small college of two thousand in the Berkshires. When I had to decide on colleges, one of the reasons I ruled out Williams was because it was too isolating to be in the mountains. And one of the reasons I ruled out Penn was that it was too chaotic to be in the city. And this is coming from a city girl.

Nonetheless, I did and still do see the benefits of a small LAC and I absolutely do not believe that any college will be like the “real world.” For four years of your life, you can choose to spend it learning the way you want to. And afterwards, Williams will not hurt you if you want research experiences, recruiting, or real world experiences. Especially for Physics, since that is one of their strong suits. It has always been, and will likely remain, a place that produces outstanding graduates.

12

The real advantage of a small, liberal arts college are many, and are unrecognized by all the people above who cannot speak to the experience. At Williams you never would be taught by teaching assistants. All your teachers at Williams will be professors; not true of Penn. At Penn you will be a number, one of hundreds in popular classes. At Williams, almost all the classes will be small. You will get invited to dinner at your professors’ houses at Williams, but probably never at Penn. You will be able to do research directly with a professor in a professors lab, for instance, at Williams, but must wait until you are a graduate student to do that at Penn. At Penn the preprofessional students will be cutthroat and see you as competition. Williams, on the other hand, will have a more cooperative atmosphere, which will better prepare you to work in teams and groups in the “real world.” College is a time to immerse yourself in your academics. It does not need to be a time to scope out jobs or learn to be cutthroat yourself or to immerse yourself in a big city party scene. None of that develops your intellect. The advantage to being in a remote location like Williams is that your focus will be on academics and on fostering a small community of like minded learners to support your education and studying. To me, that is what college is really about. Plenty of time for competition and disillusionment later. You don’t need to be burdened by that in college. You will not get lost in the shuffle at Williams and you will be highly sought after by employers and graduate schools alike.

13

I like both but since most have been pimping Penn in this thread, I’ll say something for Williams:

Williams offers tutorials, for which they are famous. You’re not going to get that kind of personal interaction with profs at Penn, as great as Penn is academically (and it’s outstanding).

Dropping the pom pons–

If you cannot decide based on fit, then decide based on cost. And don’t forget to include travel costs.

Williams is the top LAC, probably – at least top-four in about everyone impartial’s book – and Penn is a top-10 U. Regardless of your choice, you have a bright future if you work hard.

14

“All your teachers at Williams will be professors; not true of Penn.”

Actually, that is not true. All courses are taught by professors at Penn.

“You will be able to do research directly with a professor in a professors lab, for instance, at Williams, but must wait until you are a graduate student to do that at Penn.”

That is not true either. D got a research assistantship with a professor at Penn as a freshman.

“At Penn the preprofessional students will be cutthroat and see you as competition.”

Wrong again. Students at Penn tend to be cooperative and sociable, not cutthroat. Ask the students.

15

Indeed. In fact, undergraduate research with professors and in their labs is a major component of the Penn ethos, and is institutionalized and facilitated at Penn through the Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships (CURF), and its undergraduate Research Directory and undergraduate research counseling services:

http://www.upenn.edu/curf/research/research-directory

16

@“45 Percenter” said:

“Indeed. In fact, undergraduate research with professors and in their labs is a major component of the Penn ethos, and is institutionalized and facilitated at Penn through the Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships (CURF), and its undergraduate Research Directory and undergraduate research counseling services:”

Please, to all the the posters on this thread, let’s not misrepresent what undergraduate experience at a Penn Lab can mean. I’m friends with a few PIs (Principal Investigators - i.e. lab heads) at Penn, and make no mistake, their purpose is to churn out high level research. More than teaching, more than mentoring, they face pressure to generate research. Undergrads are the LEAST useful resource to aid in this endeavor. (Grad students are moderately useful, but slow, and post-docs are the most productive.)

This doesn’t mean that undergrads can’t have great, close relationships with prominent science faculty. What this does mean, though, is that the experiences can vary tremendously. I’ve known more than a few Penn PIs who, when asked to write a recommendation for an undergrad lab worker, farm the work out to a grad student or post-doc, and then simply sign the recommendation. They also farm the “babysitting” of undergrads out to post-docs, grad students, lab techs, etc. Some don’t of course, but don’t kid yourself - some definitely do.

@Much2learn said:

“All courses are taught by professors at Penn.”

Again, let’s not misrepresent this. Classes at Penn are LISTED as being taught by professors. In practice, busy faculty (especially on the science end) often farm the bulk of the teaching out to post-docs and grad students. The professor is listed as the course instructor, but that prof might not be doing the bulk of the teaching (and certainly not the bulk of the grading/feedback). As always, YMMV.

@prezbucky

As I said earlier, if the OP WANTS a small elite LAC experience, Williams is the clear choice.

HOWEVER, if there’s any tension here, it’s this: The OP can make Penn feel smaller. The OP cannot make Williams feel larger. This essentially is the crux of the issue.

17

@Cue7 Have you reviewed the undergraduate research opportunities listed in the CURF Research Directory to which I linked? Select a category and hit the “Submit” button. You’ll see that there are many, many undergraduate research positions currently listed in every category. And these are positions listed by the professors/researchers themselves specifically for undergraduates because they genuinely need assistance with research, and not some make-work positions created by Penn’s College to create the illusion of undergraduate research opportunities. Certainly, the experiences and substance of these positions will be quite a mixed bag, ranging from busy work to substantive research (I’ve heard of several Penn undergrads who’ve actually been listed as co-authors, or otherwise been given credit, in published articles and research). But the point is that there are NUMEROUS opportunities for Penn undergrads–and I’m sure undergrads at other highly selective research universities–to participate in and be exposed to leading-edge research in the sciences, engineering, business, social sciences, and humanities. And that breadth and depth of opportunities will simply not be available at a LAC, no matter how highly-ranked or selective it is. Not to say that the LAC experience is somehow inferior because of that, but just that the opportunities for undergraduate participation in significant leading-edge research–regardless of how substantive or significant that participation is–will be MUCH more numerous and varied at a research university like Penn than they will be at a LAC.

18

Go where you feel you will have the most opportunity to participate in the schools community at all levels. For me that is far and away Penn. Being larger there is simply less bias ( not the same as no bias) to sheltering and catering to the
lets say more affluent students. Williams , while certainly a great school , fact is just like at top prep schools you will be competing at times against factors well out of your control. OF course if you are among the very affluent disregard the above.

19

@Cue7 " “Please, to all the the posters on this thread, let’s not misrepresent what undergraduate experience at a Penn Lab can mean. I’m friends with a few PIs (Principal Investigators - i.e. lab heads) at Penn, and make no mistake, their purpose is to churn out high level research. More than teaching, more than mentoring, they face pressure to generate research. Undergrads are the LEAST useful resource to aid in this endeavor. (Grad students are moderately useful, but slow, and post-docs are the most productive.)”

D’s experience may have been given a unique level of responsibility, idk. She worked directly with the professor for several days, and then largely independently after that. The professor wanted a student with strong technical CS and math background to construct a very large database to make their research more efficient. To do that, she needed to understand the objectives of the research, the information needed to assess the thesis, the math behind the assessment, be able to access the required data in bulk, compile the data, cleanse the data, and organize it into a database that can be accessed and assessed efficiently. The professor was not a CS professor, but a professor in another department who needed a level of technical and math skills that most of their own students did not possess. I guess when you say, “Undergrads are the LEAST useful resource to aid in this endeavor” it depends. This professor’s grad students did not have the skills to construct the database they needed from scratch, so they hired her to create it. It was a really great opportunity for D and she learned a lot of technical details as well as a lot about cutting edge research in another area. Maybe that isn’t typical? Maybe other freshman are getting coffee and donuts? idk.

@Cue7 “In practice, busy faculty (especially on the science end) often farm the bulk of the teaching out to post-docs and grad students.”

I am confused about this response, because you a lot about Penn. There must be something I do not know. I was told by Penn and my D has confirmed that professors are required to teach their own classes, and that in practice that means that the professor can not delegate the teaching of undergraduate courses, and can also not delegate their office hours. The professor may send an assistant to guide the class through a review, but only if there is no new material being taught. Post docs and TA’s are allowed to grade papers, and support students with homework help, lead a recitation etc., but they do not teach new material to the class.

This rule may not have been in place when you were there, or perhaps it is only the rule in SEAS, but that is the rule now. In the two years that D has been there, D has not had a single course that was not taught by the professor. Perhaps you can tell me more about your perspective.

20

@Much2learn

I don’t know if that principle applies to all UPenn schools. I know for a fact that, in certain science classes, the professor gives a few lectures, but delegates a good deal of work to either grad students or post docs. The professor attended all the classes, but often let the others do the teaching. In the numerous instances I heard of this happening, it was actually for the best - the professors were horrendous teachers/presenters. Also, grad students and post docs can be great teachers, especially at good universities. And, at large research Us, it looks great on a grad students cv to say she assisted with a prominent course. It’s kind of a win win for the research focused faculty member and the grad student.

I also think it values tremendously, and, as I said before, especially at Penn, YMMV. It’s why it behooves the student to read course recalls and find out what the real deal is for each professor considered.

@“45 Percenter”

Undoubtedly, there are tons and tons of research opps available for undergrads. The experience can very tremendously though. Much2learn noted that his d is proficient in comp sci, and there is a dearth of talent in this area - those skills are coveted, and those students get great opps. For those looking to assist by adding basic lab bench skills, these students are a dime a dozen.

The key at Penn, as I’ve said before, is for the student to be his or her best advocate, and to parse great opps from bad ones. What’s written on a website may be very different in practice. Certain professors may honor the agreements, and others may farm work out. Similarly, some students work just for a recommendation, and others do truly vital work in labs. Moreover, admin offices vary in how much they can help. If an undergrad does research in John Epstein’s lab (he’s the chief science officer at upenn) - and undergrads can - you better believe that CURF admins would have no clout in convincing him to pay more personal attention to an undergrad. It’s up to the student to be a good advocate and choose opportunities carefully. At small LACs, the feel is probably much different. (Not saying that’s good or bad - I much preferred going to a more impersonal research u, but since Williams is smaller than most high schools, the feel is probably much different.)